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Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

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Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#321
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, you obviously care a lot about this topic, but I think you're really wrong on your facts. For the record, I'm Israeli, so take what I say with your appropriate level of skepticism - but I'm going to at least try to get across what I think you're wrong about. I hope you approach what I say with an open mind, though many people tend not to (in any discussion of anything, not just about this). > And when you say "…

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> That isn't war. IDF soldiers filming themselves rifling through the underwear in a private home talking about how Arab women are sluts because they dare to have nice panties, isn't war.

IDF soldiers should never do those things, and the IDF has multiple times said as much - and disciplined soldiers who did similar. (I don't know of this specific case, I think, but I've seen other very terrible displays - which most Israelis condemn and which are against the IDF's code.)

> And I am not criticizing Israel. I am criticizing Israeli Nazis, which happen to be in power. If you equate the two, that is your thing.

Thank you for saying so.

That said, let's be clear - I hate the current Israeli government and am one of the many people who have protested them for the last year. I wouldn't call them Nazis, that's going too far - but some of them are almost as bad, and a few have the rhetoric of Nazis, no question.

That said, the IDF isn't the Israeli government. The majority of soldiers are basically regular Israelis put into a terrible situation that they never wanted to be in. And the majority of the country, while hating the current government, supports this war.

> So, how do we ensure the IDF doesn't murder more journalists and civilians? Level Israel? I mean, how else could you be 100.00% sure, right?

I never said let's be 100% sure. I asked a question. A real question that all Israelis are asking. If Mexico had invaded the US and killed a thousand citizens, it would be completely legitimate to ask how the US would make sure this didn't happen again. If this was followed by Mexico continuing to shoot rockets at the US for 3 months, while promising to invade again, I think it would be legitimate to ask what the US should do.

You haven't said what you think should be done in this situation, and I'm still curious. And no, I don't need 100% certainty that Hamas doesn't do this again, but given what they say, I am 100% certain that it will happen again if Israel does nothing.

> Just take these for starters, and spare me all that hand wringing about being forced into smugly destroying civilian infrastructure. It doesn't even pass the smell test.

You've clearly made up your mind. I'd only say that your amount of certainty does not seem related to what any experts on the matter say about the type of operation that is underway. It is very similar in many ways to other operations carried out by e.g. the US against ISIS (though has some other complications).

If you're starting out from the assumption that of course the IDF wants to destroy civilian buildings, OK, nothing I can do to change your mind. But there are reasons for most bombings, and they're usually clear and explainable. The fact that you don't even entertain this idea is... well, not a good way to approach things.

> But seriously, it's not that I "care" so much about the topic, I simply know to much for it being worth your time to even try this on me.

Tr "try" this on you? I have to live this. I'm the one who lives knowing that people all around the world are convinced my country is committing genocide, despite it being wrong (you never answered anything of what I said about this, btw). I'm the one who lived through a week of not knowing if a multi-front war is about to start, which could endanger my life. I'm the who spent months explaining to my kids why they have to run daily to bomb shelters as we were being bombed.

And no one I've talked to has yet given me a good answer for what we should be doing instead

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R49v3K29mM

This was a great video - I haven't seen it. For the record, I agree with most of it. It doesn't really offer any other solutions either though.

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#322
post #96
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Houthis official slogan is: “God is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews, Victory to Islam." I’m petty sure they do not give a shit about making consumerism harder for Americans. In fact it’s probably a bonus.

On the other hand, this is literally the oldest, best established casus belli in the American system.

(for what it's worth, this was a rare opportunity to namedrop the Barbary Pirates, not so much a political statement)

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#323
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were promised a victory many times thanks to the overwhelming power and sophistication western weapons repeatedly. Not "hold off Russia for 2-3 years, not fight to a standstill". Victory and a return to 1991 borders after first severing the land bridge to Crimea. It was a very specific prediction. To say that they havent lived up to their promise is an understatement given how abysmally they performed in the summe…

> We were promised a victory many times thanks to the overwhelming power and sophistication western weapons By whom?! The American establishment has been repeatedly forecasting doom and gloom for Ukraine.

Western media, representing an ebullient american establishment, which was replete with articles like this around the beginning of may 2023:

https://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-counteroffensive-begun-expe...

If you can find an article from may 2023 that accurately predicts that ukraine could end the offensive with less land than it started off with Id like to see it.

There's more doom and gloom now of course. The failure is hard to ignore.

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#324
post #319
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are conscripts, so I would imagine there's a range of positions when they are killing thousand of women and children alongside with combatants. Firstly, the majority of the IDF isn't active-duty conscripts, they're reservists. They're still conscripts, and they still have to serve, but it's not exactly difficult to not serve if you choose not to. Not sure this impacts anything else you say, but I thought it's…

Half of the people they kill are women and children. That’s lots of regret they will have to go through the upcoming years. They won't be known as the "good guys", even if the Prime minister tries to frame this as a fight between good and evil most of the world isn't buying it.

> Half of the people they kill are women and children. That’s lots of regret they will have to go through the upcoming years.

Yes, it is. I think almost all of those deaths are on Hamas, they brought this on their own citizens that they are effectively keeping hostage. But that doesn't make me regret it any less.

> They won't be known as the "good guys", even if the Prime minister tries to frame this as a fight between good and evil most of the world isn't buying it.

Israelis haven't been seen as the "good guys" at any point in my life, really, most people in the world have either been indifferent to Israel or hated us.

(For the record, I don't see many Americans being treated as evil in the same way, despite having caused far, far more casualties than Israel has ever done in the last 20 years.)

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#325
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Shooting down a drone usually doesn't do it partly because of the political implications: it would be deeply unpopular to put "boots on the ground" over a shot-down drone. Supposedly there are political implications for not responding to the shooting down the drone too. How are those taken into account I wander? It seems that there is a deep believe in the US that if they wouldn’t “provoke” then russia would not att…

I don't think the downing of that drone increased Russian aggression. Russia doesn't want a war with the US but seems to want to push boundaries as far as possible and win it's war in Ukraine. The US response of giving weapons to Ukraine and putting Russia under sanctions is pretty aggressive, it's about as far as the US can go without actually fighting in Ukraine. It's probably serving the west well politically to i…

Well, US could (and should!) send much more weapons than it did so far - a lot of really useful surplus kit still laying around in warehouses all around the US.

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#326
post #2

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More relevant to the ongoing attack: > “The Yemeni position is clear,” Abdullah Ben Amer, a high-ranking Houthi official in a department that is part of the group’s defense ministry, told The New York Times. The Houthi escalation in the Red Sea will stop, he said, when “the Israeli war on the people of Gaza stops.”

Houthi != Yemeni

Houthi : Yemen :: Hamas : Palestine

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#327
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One side is raising conscription from 40-43. One side is asking women to register for conscription. One side is saying that they need to conscript half a million citizens to replenish losses. The other side as yet has only called up reservists and recruited volunteers. Which side would you say is which based upon the losses you have counted?

> One side is raising conscription from 40-43. One side is asking women to register for conscription. One side is saying that they need to conscript half a million citizens to replenish losses. You can say I'm wrong, fake news and Ukraine suffered more losses. If we pretend it's true, mobilising the entire country makes Ukraine look even more like USSR in WWII. Gotta fend off fascist invaders at any cost. Which thank…

In WW2 the Nazis were trying to exterminate the slavs. In this war Putin is attracting condemnation for handing out passports. This changes the dynamic and the stakes. The two arent really comparable.

It isnt a racism inspired genocide like Israel is committing in Gaza.

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#328
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neighboring countries like Slovakia or Hungary could also state similar historical stuff (I lived through it myself) yet look at their current governments. Hungarians also had 1956 yet look at Orban

Hungary is currently hugely dependent on Russian natgas, so they're completely at Putin's mercy. Putin could have have them freeze to death at a snap of his fingers, which I'm sure was pointed out to Orban during a private audience.

Well, the Czech Republic used to get most of its natural gas from Russia as well, even very recently - mainly due to how the old eastern block pipeline network was laid out.

But it has since the switched to regasiffied LNG & rented a couple LNG terminals for it. Other European countries did the same successfully. Why Hungary can't do that as well ?

Seems more like some direct blackmail against Orban and his people to me.

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s such a cringe name, I wonder if that hurt the adoption. I think the real issue is that the Operation gives a bit too much power to the US to direct the participants. There is cooperation and then there is subordination.

> It’s such a cringe name, I wonder if that hurt the adoption. Yeah, because governments make critical decisions about their economic and security interests based on how cringe the name a given operation has.

I work a lot with governments and from my experience naming matters a lot, way more than it should. They’re basically always in campaign mode even when they’re in power. Often the first question is what will people think when they hear the name of the project. Most people don’t read briefs so often their entire perception is from the title and what they’ve been told to think about it by others. I’ve had to kill projects due to too much time taken up in committees over the damn name of the thing.

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many US wars were triggered by dis/misinformation: The Gulf of Tonkin for Vietnam, and the fictitous nuclear weapons program in Iraq come to mind. For Iraq, the government made an argument something like, 'you can't wait for the mushroom cloud'.

The US War in Iraq was not due to misinformation. Misinformation may have sold it to the public, but to give the people responsible for that war a pass, as if they were just mislead, is .. well it's just covering for their actions.

Yes, agreed. Part of my point is that, public or private, it was not driven by facts.
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