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Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

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Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#211

This is gonna seem sort of like an off-topic comment but once we have free, unlimited, clean energy that can’t be weaponized into things like dirty bombs, a lot of these wars will simply disappear. Yes, this is a pie in the sky dream probably another 250 years away at minimum, but think about it: Don’t have carrots? Build a greenhouse and turn the lights on all day/night. Don’t have water? Condense it from the air or…

Wars aren't a means to achieve resources, but to destroy them and waste them. In the long term, that is.

> War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent.

-- George Orwell

And with many conflicts, I'd say it's about one class of war mongers and war profiteers distributed onto both sides, and one class of average people -- and the average person doesn't want war period, they have to be coaxed into it with great effort -- distributed onto both sides. Then the lunatics on each side use the lunatics on the other side as a reason to tighten their grip over their own population, and for sending their "own" people off to become murderers and/or die. Then they build statues for themselves.

Yeah, that's a simplification, and snarky. But it sure is closer to the truth than the narrative of countries struggling as against each other, where the politicians, generals, grunts and civilians of one nation are on one side, and the politicians, generals, grunts and civilians of the other nation on the other.

> If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it's that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

-- Marjane Satrapi

Yeah, the Iranian and the US government aren't "the same". But I trust the point is obvious anyway.

> [Q: Isn't there a certain calculus that someone who is sitting in the shoes of a Condoleezza Rice can make, that they're responsible for the best outcome for American citizens, and there's an upside of going into Iraq which is we get one of the greatest material possessions in world's history, and there're downsides which are: we upset the international community, and maybe there's more terrorism. Couldn't you envision a calculus where they say, sure, that's the reason, and it's a good reason, let's do it. What's the flaw in the calculus?]

> Oh, I think that's exactly their calculus. But then we ought to just be honest and say, "Look, we're a bunch of Nazis." So fine, let's just drop all the discussion, we save a lot of trees, we can throw out the newspapers and most of the scholarly literature, and just come out, state it straight, and tell the truth: we'll do whatever we want because we think we're gonna gain by it. And incidently, it's not American citizens who'll gain. They don't gain by this. It's narrow sectors of domestic power that the administration is serving with quite unusual dedication...

-- Noam Chomsky, "Why Iraq?" at Harvard University, November 4, 2002

Those "narrow sectors of domestic power" use those under their thumb to against narrow sectors of other power centers, and vice versa. And there was never a "need" for it. Not 100 years ago, not 10000 years ago. War is good for "absolutely nothing". That's why you have all the ceremonies and uniforms and somber faces. It's like royalty that way. Or religion.

If we think adding infinite energy, "infinitely" fast and free computation, "infinite" memory, "free" sensors attached to every pebble in the solar system to the mix will lead to more freedom just like that seems.. unlikely. As in, the parties who right now aren't showing any signs of stopping their consolidation of power, their efforts to atomize and disenfranchise people, when they are still only struggling for limited power, will just... step aside once there is "infinite" power to be had, instead of using it to tighten their grip, and also stab each other in the back and consolidate as much as they can? Why would they? Who would make them? With what?

Instead of removing a "need" for war, which I'd say never existed in the first place, infinite resources could just as well allow for an infinite amount of it. A boot on a human face, forever. Ran out of enemies? Clone some. Ran out of traitors? Entrap some. Think Starship Troopers.

Awkardly translated from the German version back to English via DeepL:

> Suddenly it turns out that what the human imagination has banished for millennia to a realm beyond human competence can actually be created. Hell and purgatory, and even a reflection of their eternal duration, can be constructed by allowing people to die indefinitely using the most modern means of destruction and the art of healing. What these types, of whom there are many more in every big city than we would like to admit, realize when watching these films or reading these reports is that the power of man is greater than they dare to admit, and that hellish fantasies can be realized without the sky falling and the earth opening up.

-- Hannah Arendt, "Origins of Totalitarianism"

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#212
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is like WWII. Hitler also seemed winning at first. He even took the capital. Eventually thanks to allies though Hitler was defeated. In the end USSR lost twice as many millions of its people so in terms of human cost the win was dubious. The difference is that right now Putler already lost 2x+ as many people as Zelensky, and could not manage to capture the capital. Which was promised how many times? I vaguely re…

One side is raising conscription from 40-43. One side is asking women to register for conscription. One side is saying that they need to conscript half a million citizens to replenish losses.

The other side as yet has only called up reservists and recruited volunteers.

Which side would you say is which based upon the losses you have counted?

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#213
2 hours after the missiles were fired the ship was attacked again by four small boats and attempted to board. US helicopters responding were fired upon and killed 3/4 of the boats and crews. (Reported after article written)

Generally, I've found @TankerTrackers on twitter is good.

"The ship did call on Israel's Haifa port in October and several other ports after that in Egypt, Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, Saudi Arabia, China, and others, based on shipping data. "

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#214
post #4

Something I'm unsure about is what does and doesn't trigger wars. Russian jets downed a US drone over the black sea in March 2023, I thought for sure there'd be a commensurate US military response. But there didn't appear to be one. Was it because no human was aboard the drone (so no response was justified), from fear or escalation, or something else? In any case, if a large cargo ship were sunk, would the US or othe…

Read more about the incident here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Black_Sea_drone_inciden...

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#215
post #210
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean, them fighting a country 3 times the size, with about 10 times the manpower to a standstill is to be considered a loss?

We were promised a victory many times thanks to the overwhelming power and sophistication western weapons repeatedly. Not "hold off Russia for 2-3 years, not fight to a standstill". Victory and a return to 1991 borders after first severing the land bridge to Crimea. It was a very specific prediction. To say that they havent lived up to their promise is an understatement given how abysmally they performed in the summe…

> We were promised a victory many times thanks to the overwhelming power and sophistication western weapons repeatedly.

You will always be promised victory. I’ve yet to find the first general that preaches defeat.

Anyhow, for the fact that they have to do with a mishmash of whatever they can scrounge up from the allied nations and then use equipment they’re unfamiliar with and barely trained in, I’m kind of happy with the results?

Of course it’s a far cry from a win, but that was always kind of unreasonable to expect.

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#216
post #196

I'm really confused as to why no where in the article do they mention the intent of attacking the ships. As if the houthis in yemen are attacking ships because they like it or just because they "hate developed societies". Their declared reason is to put pressure on Israel to allow humanitarian aid to Gaza at once. They target ships that have Israeli links or heading to Israeli ports. It can be seen as a form of treat…

wait so your logic is its Ok to attack unrelated civilians in order to promote a political agenda ?

that sure sounds like what you're supporting is literal terrorism

"it can be seen as a form of treating israel" - thats the most feeble of excuses for terrorism

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#217
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any country that invades is going to be seen as responsible for fixing that mess Unless the invading country is Israel.

Israel gets yelled at by the UN pretty constantly. If anything that statement applies to Israel more than most countries.

I guess I read it more as ‘actually holding them responsible’ than occasionally (or constantly) yelling at them, since that is kinda pointless.

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#218
post #196

I'm really confused as to why no where in the article do they mention the intent of attacking the ships. As if the houthis in yemen are attacking ships because they like it or just because they "hate developed societies". Their declared reason is to put pressure on Israel to allow humanitarian aid to Gaza at once. They target ships that have Israeli links or heading to Israeli ports. It can be seen as a form of treat…

wait so your logic is its Ok to attack unrelated civilians in order to promote a political agenda ? that sure sounds like what you're supporting is literal terrorism "it can be seen as a form of treating israel" - thats the most feeble of excuses for terrorism

That's not what I said or believe. And regardless, the fact the intent of attempting to stop ships is missing from the article is abhorrent

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact thing I was thinking in response to the GP. Worth noting is that Clausewitz lived in a world where wars were events that were declared between states. Today a major difference is insurgency/counterinsurgency. And our state likes to wage wars without formal declaration. Not to mention its wars against abstract concepts instead of foreign states.

> And our state likes to wage wars without formal declaration. Not to mention its wars against abstract concepts instead of foreign states. This really well fits what Russian gov does (as someone from there). I actually think every offensive war is explained by concepts because people don't want to just kill people, they need a higher explanation to risk death and sleep at night after some murdering. It is in the nam…

> This really well fits what Russian gov does (as someone from there).

ok but I am pretty sure the OP was talking about the US's politically-motivated forever wars on nouns, the "War on Some Drugs" and the "War on Terror But Not The Causes Of Or Allies Hosting Terror".

Re: Maersk ship hit by missile in the Red Sea

#220
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like WWII. Hitler also seemed winning at first. He even took the capital. Eventually thanks to allies though Hitler was defeated. In the end USSR lost twice as many millions of its people so in terms of human cost the win was dubious. The difference is that right now Putler already lost 2x+ as many people as Zelensky, and could not manage to capture the capital. Which was promised how many times? I vaguely re…

One side is raising conscription from 40-43. One side is asking women to register for conscription. One side is saying that they need to conscript half a million citizens to replenish losses. The other side as yet has only called up reservists and recruited volunteers. Which side would you say is which based upon the losses you have counted?

> One side is raising conscription from 40-43. One side is asking women to register for conscription. One side is saying that they need to conscript half a million citizens to replenish losses.

You can say I'm wrong, fake news and Ukraine suffered more losses. If we pretend it's true, mobilising the entire country makes Ukraine look even more like USSR in WWII. Gotta fend off fascist invaders at any cost. Which thanks to Allies sending a crapton of supplies USSR did. Let's see history repeat itself.

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