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Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

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Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#191
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there is actually a technical reason here. NACS isn't a thing in Europe because 3 Phase power is much more common in Europe. NACS does not support 3 Phase power, and as a result, is not that common in Europe.

On the other hand, there are A LOT more volkswagens and audis in europe (and even some porsches) than teslas. Add seat, opel and škoda to this, and the number is even higher.

While that is true to some extent, it's a very dynamic situation/market.

https://electrek.co/2023/12/19/audi-puts-big-ev-push-on-the-...

https://electrek.co/2023/11/16/volkswagens-ev-woes-worsen-ov...

VW owns Audi, Seat and Skoda.

(On a side-note, I own a VW EV and love it)

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Owning the charging network is a nice hedge against losing the battle to become one of the platforms. Charging networks are IMHO not a viable long term business model. Building out a "platform" to sell commodity electrons is utterly stupid. Nobody wants the stupid app, they want to charge at McDonalds along the highway while they grab something to eat.

Infrastructure (to provide fuel or energy for transportation) is a long term business model.

Aren't superchargers just the endpoint? Isn't the actual infrastructure mostly the power/energy companies?

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#193

I think people are missing the big story here. This is Tesla winning the charging network battle (it wasn't close before this). Any EV car (which will eventually be all cars) will immediately be available for Tesla's supercharger network. This gives Tesla a massive revenue stream and scale to grow that network even bigger. Anyone who wants their superchargers has to also support all Teslas.

How long does it take to charge if my EV battery is at about zero with a supercharger? The same time it takes to pump gas?

we took a road trip last summer about 4000 miles in our model Y Long range. You end up supercharging approximately every three hours for about 15 minutes. it actually worked out very well because our first stop of the day was almost always lunch. we picked hotels that had chargers on site so we started each day with enough charge to make the next supercharger.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. The real win here is for the public. The "standard" charging plug and cables weigh a LOT, so much that my elderly mother probably couldn't use one. The "standard" also mandates the use of PowerLine Communication chips even though the signal is not over the high power conductor. We are all better off just biting the bullet now and changing everything over to the Tesla plug.

Cable weight corresponds to charging power rating and choice of materials, not plug choice. A combined CCS2 plug is chunkier and might be a bit heavier, but not compared to, say, using a fuel pump.

Just go try them both. CCS2 Has separate AC and DC conductors, and the plug is huge owing to having 2 pair of charging pins and backward compatibility. They are more awkward and heavier than a fuel pump, and significantly heavier than the Tesla plugs. It's terrible.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#195
I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us.

One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simply pull up to a station, plug in, and charging start right away. i.e. No more fiddling with multiple different manufacturer's apps, no more being SOL if your phone battery is dead.

While we're seeing agreement on the physical standard for the shape and size of the conductors, there's still progress to be made on the protocol between vehicles and charger. Tesla refuses to implement OCPP because they have a great walled garden right now and don't want to release the stranglehold on the payments.

[1] https://www.starlightcharging.com

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because CCS1 only supports 1 phase AC because the usual standard of residential power is 1 phase AC. In contrast, in Europe 3 phase AC is the standard, so it makes sense to support that advantage (especially the 400V across the legs) in charging vehicles.

Three phase power is not “the standard” in Europe. It’s more available perhaps, but certainly not the default residential hookup.

It is the default for building hookups (i.e. excluding individual apartments/condos/flats, but EV chargers don't make sense there anyway) at least in the Western European countries - can't speak for much of Eastern Europe but Croatia where it is also the default. Even during the 60s when the home of my grandparents was built in back-then Communist Yugoslavia, it was already 3 phase.

Our transmission grid (that actually extends even down to Africa and parts of Asia!) is already three phases, we're not sparsely settled to require SWER anywhere, so it doesn't save the utilities any money to not lay three-phase AC to every building by default.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#197
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which countries have landed men on the moon using garbage standards? Which countries have landed men on the moon using your preferred standards?

Any country can land on the moon after spending the same amount of money and effort as the US; intelligence and talent are abundant, existing in every nation and human being.

I guess the question is how to get the means to spend such efforts, and how Europe didn't

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference is that over time Tesla has streamlined mass production, installation, and reliable operation of their chargers. They are averaging 1.5 charging stations installed per day over the last year in North America. Each of those stations has at least 8 chargers, some of them have 24, 40, or more. They have moved to pre-fab construction where a row of 8 chargers are all installed in a concrete slab th…

The price of charging is already dominated by the marginal cost of electricity, in the same way the price of filling your gas tank is by the price of gas. That will only be more true as charging gets faster. So an advantage in fixed costs is unlikely to be much of a strategic benefit. If they can save 100k/stall, that's great. But that is only a few hundred million a year at that install rate.

> The price of charging is already dominated by the marginal cost of electricity

No it isn't. Most level 3 chargers are 3x-4x the price of electricity.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#199
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which will eventually be all cars God I hope that day is long long in the future given the current ecosystem surrounding this crap. The last thing I want to add to my car is the multi-variant USB-C, thunderbolt, lightning adapter bullshit with accounts and subscriptions. It's the very worst of tech bro culture applied to critical infrastructure. What if the car makers owned and/or could strike deals with specific g…

If ICE cars were invented today, every manufacturer would try to lock you in with their own shape of fuel tank opening. Have a toyota? Use the round fuel pumps. Ford? You need to find a pump with a notch on the end of the end so it's compatible with your tank. BMW? Two notches--find a different fuel station! Jeep? Square shaped pump! Or you need to keep a set of $100 dongle adapters in your trunk at all times. $400 f…

If cars were invented today, they'd never let us have them.

"It's like a horse and buggy, but much faster and heavier."

"But it'll know somehow how to avoid other vehicles and pedestrians and trees and houses and such?"

"No, the driver has to pay continuous attention or it'll veer wildly and hit whatever's in front of it."

"Shouldn't it run on rails? Or between protective barriers?"

"Painted lines."

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#200
This makes me sad in a way that's a little hard to articulate. But I'll try!

I plug my $9000 2013 Nissan Leaf into an ordinary 120V extension cord each night so I can commute to a neighboring city for work, and the electricity costs me $20/mo. I also have a 1986 Toyota pickup like on Back to the Future that I had to gas up every other week, using 30 gallons of gas per month and costing over $100. So the operating cost of an EV is about 3-5 times lower than a gas vehicle.

My friend has an EV charging dongle that we jokingly call the octopus, which has a dozen adapters for plugging into every kind of 120/240V outlet like on ovens and dryers. So he charges his car in 4 hours out of whatever outlet is available, for the same $20/mo that I pay.

So convincing the public that everyone needs to buy a $500-1000 charging station for their EV was a social engineering campaign to slow the adoption of EVs.

The real engineering work to let us plug EVs into any outlet has not been done yet. But it would look like this:

* Level 2 J1772 chargers have a resistor that tells the EV how much wattage to draw. But that just passes the buck to the user, who now must ensure that the outlet can provide that wattage. A better system would have a smart power manager that senses current saturation or voltage drop near the point where the circuit breaker trips. We also need smart breakers that add noise/harmonics/phase as they approach their limit, which EVs would detect to self-regulate. And we need breakers that trip for a nominal time like 1 second or shorter, or however long power supplies can continue to operate uninterrupted, so that a tripped breaker isn't a showstopper.

* Nearly all US portable battery power stations come in only 120V with a 30A TT-30 plug normally used for RVs, with no 240V option unless you connect two stations for twice the price. If we want a 5000Wh/240V station so we can charge our EVs on solar power, we'll have to go to Europe or Alibaba to get it.

* Battery chargers, BMSs and inverters are notoriously finicky. They often won't charge below a certain voltage threshold, causing some solar installations to spend part of the day off. We need 95% efficient 10kW rectifiers/inverters that can take any AC/DC voltage from 0-500V and output standard 12/24/48/96/120/240/480V in all phases without requiring configuration from the user, for under $1000.

If we had these ubiquitous power tools, then choice of NACS/CCS/CHAdeMO would be moot.

Edit: I forgot to add that before Google fell, they held their Little Box Challenge in 2014 to develop a high-efficiency low-cost 95% efficient 2 kW inverter similar to the one I mentioned, so the tech has been available for almost a decade now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Box_Challenge

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