Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#71

Post by orwin » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 12:49 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

Note: the criminal penalties are a conviction, fine and probation. The victims’ “families have separately filed civil lawsuits against Aziz Riad and Tesla that are ongoing.”

The civil lawsuit cannot give suspended prison sentence i guess. Who does this person know? Or is it usual in the US? In my country, a killer will always get time, even if its "only" negligence: the time will often get suspended until the next infraction. This end after 20 years, so at least idiots like this will maybe be careful about other people lives.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#72

Post by wilg » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 12:49 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #67

wilg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a question of belief, it's a question of collecting the data. The data I mentioned is reasonable, easy to collect, and currently unavailable.

You're elsewhere in this subthread dismissing existing evidence (insurance rates) because it doesn't confirm your priors. I think we both know what would happen if this study magically appeared. "Demanding" data is a cheap evasion. The requirement for rational discourse is accepting the data you have.

lmao, nobody presented evidence based on insurance rates. I just suggested there are many other compounding factors that make insurance rates difficult to use for this purpose.

It's also absolutely hilarious to me you're assuming I think Autopilot is unsafe.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#73

Post by sidibe » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 1:16 AM UTC

cush wrote: post #47

wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

Seriously. Tesla loyalists will say there’s net fewer accidents because of Autopilot, and maybe there are, but it’s still Tesla’s responsibility to prevent the system from being misused or entering dangerous situations, whether through negligence or ignorance. Hopefully the recent recall was a wake up call.

More numbers would be great they always parrot Teslas statistics comparing the number of miles per accident that people felt comfortable enabling AP (easiest highway miles, more comparable to when other vehicles have cruise control enabled) vs all miles.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#74

Post by friend_and_foe » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 1:32 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #63

friend_and_foe wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to agree with this, I no longer do. There was an interesting read on HN yesterday coincidentally that articulates a part of my reasoning, https://www.devever.net/~hl/ruthlessness The difference is that machines have no agency . Imagine a scenario where on roads with 100% human driving, the most of the people that are killed are PCP addled people running naked across freeways where they aren't expected to be, b…

> Imagine a scenario where on roads with 100% human driving, the most of the people that are killed are PCP addled people running naked across freeways where they aren't expected to be I don't think it's helpful to introduce this scenario that is entirely not true in the real world and therefore doesn't teach us anything. You're saying that a huge number of road deaths are people that were asking for it anyway. Dozen…

It's a thought experiment. A spherical cow that demonstrates that simply measuring the aggregate death count is lossy, it assumes that the proportion of pedestrian deaths where the pedestrian is at fault remains the same in both situations which is not true, so I draw a picture which makes that glaring distinction. We need to know the details of these deaths to know which scenario is preferable. Here, reverse my scenario, the autonomous vehicles only ever kill people who jump out in front of them. That's preferable, no? Then why is the inverse not worth addressing?

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#75

Post by friend_and_foe » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 1:35 AM UTC

wilg wrote: post #65

friend_and_foe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the goal here is not 100% full autonomy?

No clue what we're talking about anymore.

If the goal is full autonomy then people using their phones while the automobile is driving have no impact whatsoever on the accident when that goal is reached, if laws banning distraction suffice for you to solve problems then your goal is not full autonomy, in which case what's the point of any of it? When full autonomy is reached, I expect that 100% of accidents will occur when passengers are busy letting the car do the driving, so that correlation would be meaningless.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#76

Post by jwalton » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 2:30 AM UTC

MandieD wrote: post #48

Ekaros wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already failed to do due diligence and ensure system he was using was fully safe. Do you think removal of license would prevent anything? As far as I know not all cars yet have license readers before starting.

Removing a negligent driver’s license turns their next speeding ticket or red light camera into driving on a suspended or revoked license, which in some places carries the possibility of jail time.

The ticket for murdering two people didn’t carry jail time. Why would driving without a license?

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#77

Post by grecy » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 2:54 AM UTC

friend_and_foe wrote: post #74

grecy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine a scenario where on roads with 100% human driving, the most of the people that are killed are PCP addled people running naked across freeways where they aren't expected to be I don't think it's helpful to introduce this scenario that is entirely not true in the real world and therefore doesn't teach us anything. You're saying that a huge number of road deaths are people that were asking for it anyway. Dozen…

It's a thought experiment. A spherical cow that demonstrates that simply measuring the aggregate death count is lossy, it assumes that the proportion of pedestrian deaths where the pedestrian is at fault remains the same in both situations which is not true, so I draw a picture which makes that glaring distinction. We need to know the details of these deaths to know which scenario is preferable. Here, reverse my scen…

I strongly disagree with your premise.

Current situation: 125 people are killed every single day

Future autonomous situation: 100 people are killed every single day

I don't care who they are, what they were doing or why they were killed.

The details of their deaths are no important. Saving 25 lives per day is clearly the right thing to do.

Hint: Imagine all of these people are your family and friends. Do you want to keep having 125 of them die every day, or only 100? Does it matter if they're being run over as pedestrians or slammed into by drunk drivers or simply sliding off the road on ice? Of course it doesn't, saving 25 of them every day is the only thing that matters.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#78

Post by iAMkenough » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 5:50 AM UTC

wilg wrote: post #33

thfuran wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect age correlates with vehicle choice and know it correlates with accident rates, so I'm not sure those figures would tell you what you think they're telling you.

OK, include driver age. Have some people put together a robust research plan that accounts for various biases. Should not be particularly difficult.

I see you claiming it's not difficult, but I don't see you making it happen. If it's so simple, take your developed plan to the authorities and make it happen. Show them what data they need to collect and how they can force manufacturers to provide it.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#79

Post by iAMkenough » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 5:58 AM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #5

iAMkenough wrote: post #2

$11,500 per human life extinguished for no reason. Tesla can easily cover that cost for the driver.

That's just the criminal penalty. There is still a civil case against both the driver and Tesla; that will likely be substantial.

I'm doubtful, but appreciate your optimism.

I should restate I suppose: Criminal law determined each life ended was only worth $11,500 each in this instance. This precedent determines you can drive your Tesla 74mph into another vehicle if you can pay a $11,500 fine for each random person you slaughter.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#80

Post by gnicholas » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 6:29 AM UTC

simondotau wrote: post #42

justin_oaks wrote: post #21

I don't believe that partially automated driving, as shown by Autopilot is fit for human use. People will rely on it as if it's fully automated and more accidents like this will happen. We see this same problem with face recognition software that says an innocent man's face matches a criminal. The cops just accept what the computer says and arrest people because the computer says it's a match. We can't have the machi…

Most new cars are sold with features roughly in parity with Autopilot. If this was a problem, we’d already see it in pedestrian injury statistics. (You may have a point with respect to systems like Supercruise and Tesla FSD, but that’s not the topic of this article.)

> Most new cars are sold with features roughly in parity with Autopilot.

Really? My understanding is that many new vehicles have lane keep assist and dynamic cruise control, but that they are much more limited than Autopilot. For example, lots of cars have much tighter limits on the curves they will follow. They also don't have the UI that Autopilot has, which shows what cars it detects. This gives more of a sense of full autonomy (although I find it a bit creepy/worrisome when vehicles appear and disappear on the screen for no reason — one would think this would give people pause).

There are definitely more expensive vehicles (Cadillac, Mercedes) that have more robust systems, but my sense is that your typical Toyota, Subaru, etc. isn't close to Autopilot.