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Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

fortune.com

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Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#31

Post by ars »

maxcan wrote: post #22
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> insane that killing two people in a car accident is treated with a fine instead of ANY jail time Which component of justice— retribution, incapacitation, deterrence, rehabilitation and reparation [1]—is served by jailing this person? The only one I see is retribution. Given the families are pursuing damages, the reparation prerogative is better served with him out of jail (and not draining his assets fighting priso…

Deterrence clearly would be served from drivers predictably knowing that causing pedestrian fatalities would lead to jail time.

Really? You think that people are fine with killing pedestrians, but if only they might go to jail they wouldn't do that?

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#32

Post by Arainach »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #14
Ekaros wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retribution and deterrence certainly would work with reasonable penalty let's say 10 years per murdered person. Also that sort of sentence would work for incapacitation. As clearly 23k is not high enough to stop many people from repeating this crime...

> say 10 years per murdered person Sure. Nobody was murdered. > clearly 23k is not high enough to stop many people from repeating this crime That’s not the penalty. It’s a criminal conviction, the fine and probation. I don’t know the terms of the probation, but I assume it means he goes to jail for traffic infractions. Also, he’s going to pay a lot more than $23k given the civil case is ongoing.

Manslaughter is also a felony.

Even the language around automobiles is corrupted. Essentially all "accidents" aren't.

Owning and operating a multi-ton machine capable of travelling at high speed and rapidly accelerating is a huge responsibility. Being distracted isn't an accident, it's negligence. Not mechanically maintaining the vehicle is negligence. Not supervising your vehicle, even when you have some sort of digital aid enabled, is negligence. None of these are accidents.

Calling a system that is not fully self-driving "autopilot" while knowing exactly what the general public considers that term to mean is....something worse than negligence.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#33

Post by wilg »

thfuran wrote: post #30
wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

I suspect age correlates with vehicle choice and know it correlates with accident rates, so I'm not sure those figures would tell you what you think they're telling you.

OK, include driver age. Have some people put together a robust research plan that accounts for various biases. Should not be particularly difficult.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#34

Post by grecy »

justin_oaks wrote: post #21

I don't believe that partially automated driving, as shown by Autopilot is fit for human use. People will rely on it as if it's fully automated and more accidents like this will happen. We see this same problem with face recognition software that says an innocent man's face matches a criminal. The cops just accept what the computer says and arrest people because the computer says it's a match. We can't have the machi…

> I don't believe that partially automated driving, as shown by Autopilot is fit for human use. People will rely on it as if it's fully automated and more accidents like this will happen.

Keep in mind 125 people are killed on the roads every single day in the US. If all vehicles magically switched to this system overnight and the system only killed 100 people per day, that would be a huge win.

The fact some people will be killed by automated driving systems is not enough to ban them. If it was, we would ban all cars.

The only important statistic is if those systems kill less people than the current state of affairs.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#35

Post by wilg »

Ekaros wrote: post #25
wilg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So would revoking the driver's license.

Already failed to do due diligence and ensure system he was using was fully safe. Do you think removal of license would prevent anything? As far as I know not all cars yet have license readers before starting.

Yes, I do.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#36

Post by [deleted] »

wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#37

Post by MandieD »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #6
HPMOR wrote: post #3

The incentives in the United States strongly favor pedestrian fatalities and reckless driving. It is insane that killing two people in a car accident is treated with a fine instead of ANY jail time. There’s a reason why fatalities on roadways continue to increase in the US. This is one of them.

> insane that killing two people in a car accident is treated with a fine instead of ANY jail time Which component of justice— retribution, incapacitation, deterrence, rehabilitation and reparation [1]—is served by jailing this person? The only one I see is retribution. Given the families are pursuing damages, the reparation prerogative is better served with him out of jail (and not draining his assets fighting priso…

Deterrence: it would make a lot of inattentive drivers take driving a bit more seriously if jail time could be the result of irresponsibility behind the wheel.

Or give those who negligently kill with their cars a choice: serve the jail time for your negligent homicide, or give up your license for life. That would still have a deterrent effect while not being life-ruining (just life-inconveniencing)

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#38

Post by [deleted] »

HPMOR wrote: post #3

The incentives in the United States strongly favor pedestrian fatalities and reckless driving. It is insane that killing two people in a car accident is treated with a fine instead of ANY jail time. There’s a reason why fatalities on roadways continue to increase in the US. This is one of them.

[deleted]
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