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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#501

Post by katbyte »

valdiorn wrote: post #436
katbyte wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not weird. Natural stone has been used forever and it was only after engineered stone entered the market they started to see a sharp rise in silicosis cases. Why ban a product that wasn’t causing the problem?

Engineered stone has been around for 60 years by now. Something tells me they weren't tracking silicosis cases as diligently back in the 1960s as they are today. Most likely, cases are up because they are better diagnosed and tracked today than before engineered stone was a thing. I don't understand how you could possibly draw this conclusion based on the evidence we have.

>Engineered stone, a durable and affordable alternative to natural materials like granite and marble, exploded in popularity in Australia throughout the 2000s.

>However doctors began sounding the alarm after noticing a surge in stonemasons developing silicosis, a long-term and sometimes fatal lung disease caused by inhaling unsafe levels of silica dust.

This is all in the last couple decades where doctors were well aware of and tracking cases. It’s very well documented and there’s no debate about cases increasing. The only debate is what exact is it about ES that makes it so much more deadly then natural stone.

It is very much linked to the use of ES not “better tracking of cases”

You clearly did absolutely no research or even read the linked article and are responding with you feelings on the matter.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#502

Post by pjscott »

stubish wrote: post #149
pjscott wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One standard remedy for situations like this is to mandate that, if an employee gets silicosis for any reason , their employer must pay them some large sum of money. Regardless of whose fault it was. If cutting corners saves money, then corners will inevitably be cut - but if it’s made to be more expensive than being careful, suddenly it makes good business sense to get serious about workplace safety.

This is unworkable. You can't penalize a company because their employees did not follow the safety guidelines they promised they would or are legally obliged to follow. Especially when a large number of workers are self employed. You can send them bankrupt with a penalty, but then have to support the disabled worker with social security and health care.

> This is unworkable. You can't penalize a company because their employees did not follow the safety guidelines they promised they would or are legally obliged to follow.

One of life's more specific amusements is describing a system that's been in widespread successful use since for over a century – and then having someone confidently say that it's unworkable. It's called "no-fault worker's compensation", and you can read more about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_compensation

Australia already has these laws on the books! They just, apparently, didn't set a high enough price on silicosis.

> Especially when a large number of workers are self employed. You can send them bankrupt with a penalty, but then have to support the disabled worker with social security and health care.

Rules vary by state and I haven't looked them all up, but New South Wales has a remedy for this: self-employed workers in fields like construction are also required to provide worker's comp for themselves – and to make sure the money is actually there when needed, they're required to carry insurance.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#503

Post by pjscott »

Qwertious wrote: post #196
pjscott wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One standard remedy for situations like this is to mandate that, if an employee gets silicosis for any reason , their employer must pay them some large sum of money. Regardless of whose fault it was. If cutting corners saves money, then corners will inevitably be cut - but if it’s made to be more expensive than being careful, suddenly it makes good business sense to get serious about workplace safety.

Construction companies pay out dividends, go bankrupt, and get re-founded by the owner's wife/cousin/son/etc every year or two here. Also they're more likely to be subcontractors than employees.

That's what mandatory liability insurance is for: it takes the occasional risk of a huge liability payout and turns it into a regular line-item on the monthly budget. One that can be bigger or smaller depending on what the insurer's safety inspectors think of their workplace safety practices.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#504

Post by pshc »

simondotau wrote: post #385
Reason077 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the size of the particles. Cutting engineered stone has been shown to generate large quantities of extremely fine particles (< 1 µm). Cutting natural stone or driving on a dirt road, the typical particle sizes are much larger.

Why isn’t it being cut wet? Surely if dust is the problem, water is the solution.

If done properly, probably.

> In February 2021, a WorkSafe Inspector attended the workplace and observed an employee using a powered abrasive polishing tool to abrasively polish a slab of white coloured stone which was from the brand Stone Ambassador. The tool was being used without the required control measures in place. Instead, the employee was applying water to the stone from a bottle with a small hole in the lid when the tool was in use.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#505

Post by InCityDreams »

doingtheiroming wrote: post #326

I often observe that PPE compliance in the U.K. is dramatically better than it is on the continent where I live. In part I think that’s a result of the concentration of the building contractor business and the (relatively) strong enforcement of workplace regulation at sites of large construction projects. You’d be shocked in the U.K. if you saw someone scaffolding a building without a helmet. In the EU, you’re shocke…

Which part of Europe? Ppe is very much mandatory with big fucking signs on every site displaying what is required where i am. And I mean every [legal] site*. A site without a sign invites a lot of questions. When I had my building renovated, the builder tried to work without a sign....no chance! By registering, and displaying the sign, it meant he had to follow the rules. I never saw similar in the uk (for example on a house), but I also wasn't looking, despite labouring for several years there.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#506

Post by tga_d »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #473
IlliOnato wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, the product does not cause death, at least not according to this article. It is production that causes severe and potentially deadly illness. And not because the production process inherently deadly, but because of rampant non-compliance with safety standards. The article does not explain why an obvious solution: certification and severe (severe!) fines for non-compliance would not work. Probably a political is…

> article. It is production that causes severe and potentially deadly illness. No. It is the cutting of the product (often on-site at the residence) to fit the kitchen or bathroom that causes silica dust. Workers not wearing mask protection and not using proper ventilation fans and vacuums breathe in the dust. The odd thing is silica dust is also present in natural stones like quartz (very popular in America right no…

Well at least according to the article, there was a very clear direct correlation with the artificial stuff. Based on the quotes in the article, it seems like most believe it's something to do with the composition of the engineered stone itself, but it could plausibly just be it's so cheap it makes installation more common. Either way, the reasoning of "there is a very clear correlation between the popularity of this material and this debilitating disease, and regulation doesn't seem to be working, so let's just phase it out" seems like sound reasoning to me.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#507

Post by WillPostForFood »

Astraco wrote: post #123
WillPostForFood wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a little more mixed than that. Granite is generally cheaper and has better heat resistance. Granite is porous, so it stains and needs sealing every year or two. Quartz/artificial takes less maintenance, is a little stronger, so it is more scratch resistant.

A polished granite countertop has not pores. Most artificial stones use epoxy, scratches easily an easier to break.

Granite is porous and polished granite is porous. It has to be sealed to prevent absorption and staining. It has to be resealed periodically (annually or semi-annually) to maintain the protection.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#508

Post by rstuart4133 »

hattmall wrote: post #54
legitster wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products de…

Is it not because the manufactured stone requires manufacturing. So a lot more exposure to the raw materials during the manufacturing process?

It's been said elsewhere here, but the ban isn't because of manufacturing. The stuff can and generally is handled very safely during manufacturing, and they appear confident they can sue / jail the odd cowboy shop that doesn't comply.

What they aren't confident is their ability to force the installers handle it safely. When it gets to the site there is often a corner to be shaved, or a unexpected hole needed. It only takes slightly more effort to use a wet saw, but to contractors time is money and it's their health they are putting as risk - so it's OK, right? The site is typically a new house or small business. Policing those sites effectively is prohibitively costly, suing for the consequences after they happen doesn't work because the disease takes years to manifest so they've killed a few people by the time it happens.

So in typical Australian fashion they've decided people making decisions in their 20's they maim or kill them in their 30's is not OK (that is what's happening), so they take what seems drastic action. It's entirely in keeping with the Australian way. We were the first insist on plain paper packaging for cigarettes for example, ditto on seat belts, we enforce total alcohol bans in towns where alcohol related violence is deemed too high (typically we see a 60% drop in alcohol related crime when that happens).

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#509

Post by IlliOnato »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #473
IlliOnato wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, the product does not cause death, at least not according to this article. It is production that causes severe and potentially deadly illness. And not because the production process inherently deadly, but because of rampant non-compliance with safety standards. The article does not explain why an obvious solution: certification and severe (severe!) fines for non-compliance would not work. Probably a political is…

> article. It is production that causes severe and potentially deadly illness. No. It is the cutting of the product (often on-site at the residence) to fit the kitchen or bathroom that causes silica dust. Workers not wearing mask protection and not using proper ventilation fans and vacuums breathe in the dust. The odd thing is silica dust is also present in natural stones like quartz (very popular in America right no…

I see.

I thought the product was actual tabletops and the like. But this is terminology.

What I did not quite get was that what I'd call "production", i.e. making the actual tabletops, happens not at a central facility but at customer homes. This is much harder to monitor and control.

In this light the ban makes more sense.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#510

Post by rtpg »

kortilla wrote: post #364
rtpg wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be too glib but I think here the reasoning is that letting market forces duke it out (even with fines and penalties) is considered to not be fast enough compared to the number of people whose health is being put at risk. Like here there are a bunch of people who have lung cancer now. And there's probably a bunch more who will get it from doing all the work up until now. And this has been in the news for a whil…

Criminal liability is not “let the market forces duke it out” in any meaningful sense.

Yeah I agree that it’s way more powerful than civil infractions or the like. I meant more that the feedback loop is quite slow
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