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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#321

Post by cyberax »

yeeeloit wrote: post #183
mattmaroon wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair, and tragic, but is the only solution banning it entirely? What about requiring PPE? There are a whole lot of jobs that are safe when done properly and unsafe, when not done properly. It seems as if they are punishing an entire industry for not knowing what they didn’t know.

Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated. The PPE available for this sort of work is just not up to the job.

> Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated.

I'm building a house, and I have a stone countertop installed. None of the cutting was done on-site. All the work was done in a specialized workshop.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#322

Post by jackvalentine »

tomlockwood wrote: post #161

I work for one of the union organisations (the ACTU) that pushed for this ban. Software devs are notoriously anti-union. Software companies notoriously have huge cash reserves that didn't go into the pockets of those devs. Join your union. If you're in Australia you can start the process, here: https://www.australianunions.org.au/join/begin-join/#/

Solidarity brother, from a Professionals Australia member.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#323

Post by newaccount74 »

legitster wrote: post #91
hattmall wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not because the manufactured stone requires manufacturing. So a lot more exposure to the raw materials during the manufacturing process?

The exposure to silica comes from cutting and grinding - and there is probably more exposure to cutting and grinding from natural stone (first at the quarry and second in production). I think the important distinction is that with natural stone, much more is cut to fit from the factory (which is easier to handle dust) vs cut on site.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that nobody tries to cut granite on site with an angle grinder. It's so difficult because the material is so hard.

Granite countertops are typically cut off-site with a waterjet, which creates zero dust.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#324

Post by newaccount74 »

wisty wrote: post #170
dboreham wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly the issue is more to do with the lower cost of the engineered material? Like, when tobacco cost a megabuck per oz in Queen Elizabeth times people smoked a pipe once in a while and in the context of their high exposure to fireplace smoke it was no big deal. Fast forward to when cigarettes cost 10c/pack and the marketing guys are selling them to 8 year olds...now it's a huge health problem.

If you're only paying a small amount for the materials, most people will be a lot more price sensitive on installation, so there's a race to the bottom.

Also, if the material is expensive, it pays off to measure exactly and order the material cut to the correct dimensions rather than just cut it on site, because if you slip with the angle grinder your mistake costs 2000€.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#325

Post by gattr »

mathieuh wrote: post #304
paxys wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly that's just the culture. I've seen apprentices laughed at by old timers and called pussies because they were taking basic precautions and wearing PPE. And then to fit in they themselves took on that same attitude.

I walked past a guy using a pneumatic drill the other day. It was so loud I crossed the road to get away from it and my ears were ringing for a while after I'd passed him. He wasn't wearing any form of ear protection at all. He can't have been much older than 20.

He could have been using small earplugs - I hope!

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#326

Post by doingtheiroming »

I often observe that PPE compliance in the U.K. is dramatically better than it is on the continent where I live. In part I think that’s a result of the concentration of the building contractor business and the (relatively) strong enforcement of workplace regulation at sites of large construction projects.

You’d be shocked in the U.K. if you saw someone scaffolding a building without a helmet. In the EU, you’re shocked if they are wearing one.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#327

Post by MandieD »

anon-sre-srm wrote: post #242
piperswe wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hurts me when I see my tradie trainee husband (at school to be an auto mechanic) skip PPE in places he really shouldn't (e.g. latex gloves when handling carcinogenic fluids). I don't really know as I can do much other than state my objections to deaf ears though.

Both my grandfather and father received identical forms of bladder cancer due to improperly handling solvents without PPE. It's preventable and stupid. A similar situation exists with mostly men who work outside and refuse to wear hats or sunscreen but develop malignant melanoma at far greater rates than other groups. The definition of stupid is someone who believes they can smoke 5 packs a day and not get cancer. Bu…

My dad worked construction from 15 to 65. I’m frankly amazed that he’s not developed skin cancer - he’s had a couple of suspicious moles removed.

He is also the only person I know who went cold turkey off a pack-a-day smoking habit, and years before indoor smoking bans and higher tobacco taxes. He gained a lot of weight that he’s never managed to shift, but he’s not touched a cigarette in over 30 years.

I’m sure he inhaled and handled plenty of other awful things on job sites without any pretense at PPE. He diligently wore a hard hat and steel-toed boots, and wouldn’t let any of his crews work without them. All I can guess is that he saw some gruesome, very preventable injuries, but vague figures on higher risk in old age just didn’t quite outweigh the inconvenience of PPE.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#328

Post by MandieD »

bowsamic wrote: post #274
stephen_g wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

Sadly no better here in Germany, which surprised me. In the UK health and safety is much more extreme. Here in Germany it’s rare to see workers taking any kind of safety precautions

My dad, who is permanently sunburnt from his half century in construction (and wasn’t terribly into most other safety measures against abstract risks), tsk-tsks the laxity of German road crews allowing workers to wear shorts in the summer. Sturdy jeans go a long way as basic leg protection, and he couldn’t imagine any construction worker in much hotter Texas forgoing them, no matter how much they have to be yelled at about hardhats.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#329

Post by doingtheiroming »

xxs wrote: post #295
Turskarama wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it illegal to do the wrong thing and have surprise audits. Losing your license is a pretty strong motivator to do it properly.

How do you do a surprise audit in a customers house?

You pass a law giving a class of inspector the right to enter premises where building works appear to be progressing. You strictly limit what they are permitted to observe and record and require recording of reasonable suspicion. Refusal to grant entry is itself an offence.

Approaches like this would work but are also a huge can of worms.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#330

Post by ktm5j »

stephen_g wrote: post #178
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

Okay well you clearly have a great life with a lot to live for, but that's not really the case for everyone. How about you don't judge people you're calling "tradies" for how they decide to live their lives.
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