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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#451

Post by pyb »

gnfargbl wrote: post #387
Hawxy wrote: post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

The logic here is that if an industry can only be made safe with strict PPE standards, but the market dynamics make it difficult to ensure compliance with those standards, then it is OK to ban the industry. That seems a pretty concerning stance for small businesses. What's next? Ban microbreweries because they don't properly manage the risks of CO2 asphyxiation? Ban small-shop mechanics because they routinely get bra…

The cause for poor health-and-safety conduct appears to be cultural, rather than "market dynamics"

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#452

Post by stephen_g »

skullone wrote: post #273
stephen_g wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

I mean, you probably should disclose your property has asbestos to trades working on your house - and they probably would wear the right PPE. Lots of people are fine with small risks with regular materials like sheetrock on small jobs (cutting a hole or something). But really, that should've been disclosed to workers as they enter your property.

I honestly don’t think it would have made a difference - he was going to drill it anyway after I stopped him, I had to ask him to please use the respirator.

In the commercial case we had also very clearly told them that it was asbestos containing but there was some miscommunication to the workers, so they just drilled all these holes…

Anyway, at the end of the day, while there are rules for commercial buildings to have asbestos registers, I wouldn’t expect every homeowner to know what every part of their house is made of, but at the same time, basically every building built for a period of more than 60 years in Australia contains (or contained) asbestos containing materials - so it’s a pretty scary lack of training or ignoring of the risks for somebody working in the building industry to not take even basic precautions when at least 1/3 or so of the houses these people are working in contains asbestos. For the solar guys, the eaves are the most likely place for it to exist, because even when houses have been pretty extensively renovated inside and had a lot of the AC sheeting removed indoors (as mine has), or might not have had asbestos sheeting inside originally (plaster was more expensive, so a more premium finish), it’s one part that was very likely to have still been AC sheeting (since it was mould resistant) and much less likely to have been replaced with non-asbestos fibreboard in the meantime.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#453

Post by hokkos »

When I had my ceramic counter top installed they first took complete laser measures of the kitchen, installed a temporary wood top and it was made and cut in a facility, I suppose with water jet and full protections, so absolutely no cutting on site with a grinder. Seems a better solution to force that than ban a stone type and let a marginally better other type free to use.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#454

Post by IlliOnato »

10u152 wrote: post #404
gnfargbl wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic here is that if an industry can only be made safe with strict PPE standards, but the market dynamics make it difficult to ensure compliance with those standards, then it is OK to ban the industry. That seems a pretty concerning stance for small businesses. What's next? Ban microbreweries because they don't properly manage the risks of CO2 asphyxiation? Ban small-shop mechanics because they routinely get bra…

They’re not banning businesses. They’re banning a product which is causing deaths. Switch to a alternate product. It’s the same in your analogy of banning a toxic brake fluid.

Nope, the product does not cause death, at least not according to this article. It is production that causes severe and potentially deadly illness.

And not because the production process inherently deadly, but because of rampant non-compliance with safety standards.

The article does not explain why an obvious solution: certification and severe (severe!) fines for non-compliance would not work. Probably a political issue.

I've noticed in the article that trade unions applauded the ban, and I wonder why.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#455

Post by landswipe »

dboreham wrote: post #86
legitster wrote: post #18

> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engineered stone could remain on the market safely. > The report found there was no safe level of silica, concluding: "The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited." I don't understand this logic. Silica is also present in natural stone too! If they are no…

Possibly the issue is more to do with the lower cost of the engineered material? Like, when tobacco cost a megabuck per oz in Queen Elizabeth times people smoked a pipe once in a while and in the context of their high exposure to fireplace smoke it was no big deal. Fast forward to when cigarettes cost 10c/pack and the marketing guys are selling them to 8 year olds...now it's a huge health problem.

I think it has more to do with the explosion of use in the market, it's everywhere now (from McMansions to cheap apartments). It is was just cheap/expensive enough to replace laminated MDF benchtops.

I suggest people look at the actual numbers -> https://lungfoundation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/NSP...

Every one of them over zero is bad, but I was surprised how small the sample of active cases actually are. It would have been better to show the change year on year though.

I was surprised that the sample rate was so few, that is active cases.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#456

Post by mattmaroon »

cyberax wrote: post #321
yeeeloit wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated. The PPE available for this sort of work is just not up to the job.

> Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated. I'm building a house, and I have a stone countertop installed. None of the cutting was done on-site. All the work was done in a specialized workshop.

I believe it’s always done that way in the US when you order granite or other stone countertops. Cutting large heavy slabs on site isn’t efficient.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#458

Post by mattmaroon »

yeeeloit wrote: post #183
mattmaroon wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair, and tragic, but is the only solution banning it entirely? What about requiring PPE? There are a whole lot of jobs that are safe when done properly and unsafe, when not done properly. It seems as if they are punishing an entire industry for not knowing what they didn’t know.

Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated. The PPE available for this sort of work is just not up to the job.

I think that’s simply untrue. You’re not cutting the stone in kitchens, it’s cut at the warehouse and transported to the kitchen. In the US we’ve regulated this and while our record isn’t 100% safety due to non-compliance (which is always the case) we’ve got a much lower rate than Australia despite presumably selling a lot more of it.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#459

Post by hokkos »

prmoustache wrote: post #437
isilofi wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an easy, cheap and well-tested air cleaner: wet cutting, i.e. cutting under running water. All dust will be bound in the runoff, almost no airborne particles. But it is messy (often not doable indoors, because you splatter everything with rock slurry) and just a little more expensive gear than for dry cutting. So nobody does it...

Water is increasingly becoming something we can't waste as easily as before in many parts of the world.

it is a closed loop

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#460

Post by acdha »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #255
ezzaf wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse in one specific regard, yes. And they agree with you in their conclusion, saying dust during processing is likely a factor. You can see the full study here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14625 > In conclusion, this study is the most comprehensive assessment of the physico-chemical characteristics of dusts generated from a wide range of resin-based engineered stones (of high- and reduced-silic…

Do you know if they ruled out the resins used to bind stuff together? In theory perfectly cured resins are supposed to be non-toxic (eg food safe) but you can get sensitised to specific mixes or accelerants and sometimes the curing isn't perfect... EDIT: It looks like they considered it but didn't come to any firm conclusions, further research needed etc.

The theory I’ve heard would make a lot of sense: the resin coating prevents natural breakdown, similar to how asbestos victims never recover while small glass fragments are eventually removed. I hope that some researcher figures this out because I’d bet it’ll be applicable to more than just this product.
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