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Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

bloomberg.com

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Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#161

Post by _ea1k »

This includes Mobileye cars without driver monitoring. I wonder if they will take similar action against various other Mobileye cars?

My Nissan Propilot behaves very similarly to AP, just with less capability and even less alertness monitoring. Surely it would be affected by the same recall? Along with a lot of other cars using similar systems?

Or maybe there is some subtle difference, but the article doesn't really make that clear. And given the broadness on the Tesla side, it is hard to see what could be different.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#162

Post by alistairSH »

Closi wrote: post #55
fundatus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not comparable at all. Airplanes are flown by trained professionals who know exactly what Autopilot can and cannot do. Regular consumers don't know these differences though and Tesla deliberately uses this ambiguity to deceive their own customers, who expect a "fully self driving" car.

And we don't expect drivers to be adequately trained and get a licence? I disagree with calling the top level of Autopilot "FSD" by the way - I think that is misleading. But Autopilot - I think that's a fair term personally considering the context and historical use.

And we don't expect drivers to be adequately trained and get a licence?

In the US? No, we don't. Even ignoring that a driver's license is treated more as a right than a perk... Consumers are absolutely NOT trained on the nuances of any particular car's UI, systems, etc.

An airline pilot absolutely IS trained on those nuances and can ONLY operate planes in which they've trained. And they get periodic check-rides from FAA examiners. And, as we saw with the 737Max, failure to train on those nuances can have deadly consequences.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#163

Post by alistairSH »

kortilla wrote: post #74
fundatus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not comparable at all. Airplanes are flown by trained professionals who know exactly what Autopilot can and cannot do. Regular consumers don't know these differences though and Tesla deliberately uses this ambiguity to deceive their own customers, who expect a "fully self driving" car.

“People are morons” is not a justification for claiming they aren’t equivalent when they are.

But they aren't equivalent.

The airline system requires thousands of hours of training total (and many hours on a specific type/model of plane) to operate.

Driving a car requires no such training.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#164

Post by genocidicbunny »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #81
trilbyglens wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reenforces my instinct to buy the dumbest thing on the market.

Lada Niva

From what I recall reading recently, the most recent models are cheap Chinese-made cars with the bare minimum of attention and QC put into them. Like, frame welded with spot welds that can be pulled apart by hand kind of issues.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#165

Post by enragedcacti »

isodev wrote: post #24
kbos87 wrote: post #11

The details are scant, but it sounds like the vehicle is going to be quicker to disable autopilot if it thinks you aren’t paying attention. I’m curious to see what this amounts to because Autopilot is already pretty sensitive to this. Pick up your phone or look away from the road for more than a few seconds and the in-cabin car notices and warns you. I don’t know of a comparable system in any car with self driving or…

I have trouble with the wording in this case. This would not increase the safety of autopilot but limit the usage to situations closer to the “happy path” of the system.

Level 2 driver assists should be measured by their safety as a complete system, which includes the driver and driver monitoring. If autopilot causes the average driver to pay less attention that is a safety issue with autopilot that should be addressed.

From a technical standpoint I understand what you're saying (autopilot didn't get any better at driving), but if autopilot is causing a stochastic safety issue with driver focus then addressing that is a good thing and makes the complete system safer.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#166

Post by lesuorac »

adamsb6 wrote: post #160
fundatus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not comparable at all. Airplanes are flown by trained professionals who know exactly what Autopilot can and cannot do. Regular consumers don't know these differences though and Tesla deliberately uses this ambiguity to deceive their own customers, who expect a "fully self driving" car.

In most states no training at all is required to operate a boat, and I don’t think there are any specific requirements around autopilot. The earliest autopilot for boats was built in the 1800s.

Which states are you referring to? Locally you need a certificate for motorized craft and it seems like almost every other state is in this situation.

You can get the certificate after taking training but I imagine there is some way to test out of it.

--

The training doesn't need to be months long though. Try renting a jet-ski; they'll give you a very quick training but it's still present. Although jet-skis are probably not long enough to qualify as motorized boats in a lot of states.

https://www.americasboatingcourse.com/lawsbystate.cfm?lid=50

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#167

Post by MattRix »

multimoon wrote: post #148
MattRix wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like all of these are minor annoyances compared to the more serious safety issues they are trying to prevent. I feel like you are underestimating how stupid the average user is… and especially how stupid the most stupid users are.

We have a drivers exam in one form or another in nearly every country that is intended to certify and evaluate your ability to pilot a vehicle. While it doesn’t always, it should include all facets of driving and the car shouldn’t need to hold your hand. I strongly believe that this hand holding cars are required to do now just lowers the average skill of new drivers. A great example of this is an alarming amount of…

Not sure if part of your argument is that we shouldn’t have safety features like a backup camera because they lead to worse drivers… because that is absurd.

At the end of the day, you are never going to be able to do tests or training to the level where it invalidates the need for good UX and safety features. Even for tasks with extensive training like air pilots, there is still a tremendous amount of effort put towards safety and usability. Human beings are fallible.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#168

Post by enragedcacti »

_ea1k wrote: post #161

This includes Mobileye cars without driver monitoring. I wonder if they will take similar action against various other Mobileye cars? My Nissan Propilot behaves very similarly to AP, just with less capability and even less alertness monitoring. Surely it would be affected by the same recall? Along with a lot of other cars using similar systems? Or maybe there is some subtle difference, but the article doesn't really…

I'm not sure what to make of it from a legal perspective, but from an automation safety perspective the difference is the "Valley of Degraded Supervision"[1].

A very simple automated system that makes a lot of mistakes will make a driver more alert than baseline, but as the automation improves drivers will quickly start to trust the system too much and lose alertness. There is a huge gulf where the system is good enough to cause loss of alertness, but where the failure rate is still far higher than the average human driver.

But you're right, in that context it doesn't make much sense to apply to AP1 cars but not everybody else. It is a voluntary recall so Tesla might just be recalling everything named "Autopilot" even if a mandated recall wouldn't have.

[1] http://safeautonomy.blogspot.com/2019/01/how-road-testing-se...

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#169

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

sidlls wrote: post #137
palemoonale wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not. As pointed out, opening and re-closing isn't uncommon, especially in winter. Stop defending nannyfying conditioning.

Sorry, a person's right to be a complete moron (opening a door while a car is moving) doesn't trump everyone else's right to not be endangered by said moron.

[dead]

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Cars to Fix Autopilot Safety Flaws

#170

Post by what-the-grump »

jader201 wrote: post #128
comboy wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that the case, perhaps you should feel that way every time you are near a road. Without commenting on autopilot performance, there are enough drivers who are worse. Maybe autopilot just helps you realize that you are not really fully in control about everything that may happen.

> Without commenting on autopilot performance, there are enough drivers who are worse. To be fair, you really can’t compare the performance of drivers to Autopilot, without commenting on Autopilot performance. Many people’s anxiety with it is exactly due to lack of confidence in Autopilot, and (relatively) more confidence in humans. I’m not arguing which one is worse, I’m just saying you can’t make the comparison wit…

I drive a lot. Around here, I trust a tesla with AP on over any driver on the road. Everyone is going 15 over the limit driving with their knees because they are on their phone texting at 80 mph. This is everyday, every time I get on a highway.

Local roads, same but we are still doing 60 in a 45 with our head glued to our shoulder or holding the phone with one hand in front of our face to facetime. I see this every day.

Get a Tesla, put on AP, take your conf call, at least it will keep you in lane, just nudge the steering wheel every 30 seconds.

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