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To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

nytimes.com

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Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#221

Post by margalabargala »

ratg13 wrote: post #164
jmcphers wrote: post #82

I live in the Seattle area, which is struggling with public drug use just like Portland. Like Portland, we've lived for decades with very progressive politicians who have lead successful decriminalization efforts and spent huge sums of public funds on treatment and harm reduction programs. After several decades and many, many millions of dollars spent, the problem is, by every measure, absolutely the worst it's ever…

I think other cities bussing and flying homeless people out west outweighs every possible policy change. We’ll never know if any of these policies stood a chance due to the USA viewing the west coast as a dumping ground for homeless people. Next time you’re passing by these people, ask them where they are from originally. Locals are like 20% of the problem.

Where I live (central Oregon), this is not the case. More than 80% of our homeless population are people that were born and raised here, and were priced out of housing and onto the streets due to housing prices skyrocketing to eyewatering levels. It has tripled in the last ten years, with a 1-br apartment going for under $600 in 2013 now going for $1700. The homelessness here is homegrown, not imported.

Portland is better housing-wise, but not by much. Considering how most people who are both homeless and on drugs were homeless first, then turned to drugs, I think this is a strong confounding factor. It's hard to saw what effect decriminalization has had on drug use when it's adjacent to a housing crisis that is manufacturing more homelessness and drug use all on its own.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#222

Post by plandis »

cortesoft wrote: post #175
ninth_ant wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that shelters have "drama" and "rules" is not a compelling reason for someone to make a home in an area that is intended for public use, and render it unusable and unsafe for others. Is this really a hard problem to solve? I can certainly buy the argument that criminalizing homelessness doesn't make sense when the "criminal" has no other options. But if someone has a viable option for not living on the stree…

> someone has a viable option for not living on the street I guess it depends on how we define viable. In my experience working with the homeless, there are a lot of valid reasons shelters are avoided; they can be more dangerous, don't allow pets (who are sometimes the only companions they have), and don't allow families or couples. Whether that is viable or not depends on how you use the word.

I really doubt homeless people are good pet owners. Food scarcity, lack of medical care for your pets, etc, etc…

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#223

Post by huytersd »

stillwithit wrote: post #187
WillPostForFood wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if one ascribes to this nihilist POV, it isn't an answer. We see the negative effects on communities, families, and people around addicts. Even if you don't care that people are destroying themselves, when they take out the surrounding area it is a problem we share.

Yeah and humans have seen it for centuries and failed to stop it Who is to say any progress we make won’t be undid by another pandemic we cannot predict, or some nutter launching the nukes We have political agents hell bent on war and subjugating undesirables, rather than pushback against them let’s focus on some people who don’t want to live? Why not ask Oceangate how the war against physics is going. It will always…

Humans have absolutely stopped it in places with draconian laws. The use of heroin in Singapore, other parts of south east Asia and parts of the Middle East is essentially zero because they give traffickers the death penalty and jail the few users for a very long time. If you can truly secure your borders and you can’t grow poppy in your country there will be no heroin.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#224

Post by stillwithit »

nomel wrote: post #210
stillwithit wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and humans have seen it for centuries and failed to stop it Who is to say any progress we make won’t be undid by another pandemic we cannot predict, or some nutter launching the nukes We have political agents hell bent on war and subjugating undesirables, rather than pushback against them let’s focus on some people who don’t want to live? Why not ask Oceangate how the war against physics is going. It will always…

> failed to stop it I don't think that's the goal. The goal is to attempt to reduce harm of something that removes freedom. Try asking a drug addict if they want to keep taking drugs. I suspect you'll be surprised at the answer. Stopping drugs would be like achieving abstinence as the primary form of contraceptive. Both are impossible because they work on the same soup of chemicals, but one has evolved with some form…

Well we all better stop flying and driving if we’re set out to reduce human suffering.

But hey the toxic mess we leave for the future to suffer through won’t be our problem so shrug

This is the most disingenuous and self righteous thread I’ve ever been involved with. Traditional catechisms and stubbornness will win out against physical reality. RBG fans I guess.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#225

Post by WillPostForFood »

ratg13 wrote: post #164
jmcphers wrote: post #82

I live in the Seattle area, which is struggling with public drug use just like Portland. Like Portland, we've lived for decades with very progressive politicians who have lead successful decriminalization efforts and spent huge sums of public funds on treatment and harm reduction programs. After several decades and many, many millions of dollars spent, the problem is, by every measure, absolutely the worst it's ever…

I think other cities bussing and flying homeless people out west outweighs every possible policy change. We’ll never know if any of these policies stood a chance due to the USA viewing the west coast as a dumping ground for homeless people. Next time you’re passing by these people, ask them where they are from originally. Locals are like 20% of the problem.

Seattle's 2019 point in time counts says 84% local, 11% in-state, 4% came from out of state. San Francisco has similar numbers. Seattle excluded this data from their most recent report. Possibly because they out of state numbers have been going up, and it is harder to raise money and sympathy for non-local homeless? But even if you allow for that, it is huge majority local.

https://web.archive.org/web/20211022190558/http://allhomekc....

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#227

Post by cscurmudgeon »

drewg123 wrote: post #110

Nowhere in these comments have I see anybody take the position that decriminalization is not enough; drugs need to be legalized and regulated. I have a close friend whose relative is a heroin addict. According to her, a lot of overdoses are due to almost no "heroin" actually being heroin, rather its fentanyl cut to varying degrees of strength. Not knowing what you're taking, and not knowing how strong it is, can lead…

This is not a strong argument as it doesn't consider all aspects.

1. Public drunkness is still a problem 2. Drunk driving still kills a lot of people. Legalization of alcohol doesn't help.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#228

Post by vineyardmike »

sokoloff wrote: post #197
gosub100 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a good point. I've never been high on opiates, but I've heard it described as "an orgasm over your whole body". How are you going to allow everyone that option and expect anyone _not_ to just check-out of reality, reduce all their other living expenses, and just live to get high?

When Bayer created heroin and brought it to market in the late 19th century, is this what happened? I don't know for sure, but I've never read about that having been a problem when it was available over the counter from a reputable brand. Surely some people became addicted to it (not that different from alcohol, nicotine, fatty sweets, or various prescription drugs), but it didn't destroy society.

The 21st century opioid crisis that’s being unraveled right now with the Sacklers and Purdue pharma would tell a different story. Of course it wasn’t over the counter.

One thing that’s missing in a lot of these discussions is strength and education. What strength was the Bayer drugs vs things available today, and how well informed was the average person that this was a product they could access recreationally.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#229

Post by hifreq »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #219
hifreq wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Available shelter space, housing vacancies: https://www.kqed.org/news/11668623/why-do-thousands-of-l-a-s... https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/san-f... https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/top-stories/story/2020-... > wages are the lowest they have been in decades This is an endless argument. Why can't a person with 0 skills rent an apartment in San Francisco? Some wages are very low. If you can't…

I dunno, I would rather be homeless in a city I know then to be homeless in a city I don’t.

Up to you mate. Just don't blame the society for your choices.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#230

Post by achates »

drewg123 wrote: post #110

Nowhere in these comments have I see anybody take the position that decriminalization is not enough; drugs need to be legalized and regulated. I have a close friend whose relative is a heroin addict. According to her, a lot of overdoses are due to almost no "heroin" actually being heroin, rather its fentanyl cut to varying degrees of strength. Not knowing what you're taking, and not knowing how strong it is, can lead…

If at first you don't succeed, double down.
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