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To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

nytimes.com

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Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#191

Post by BriggyDwiggs42 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #143
wcarss wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a weird false dichotomy you've set up. I don't think it's fair or true to ascribe "drugs are harmless" as the generalization of the position, "drug use should not carry criminal penalties". If I may try to thread this needle: - drug use has serious consequences for users directly and for society - imprisonment is not effective at curbing drug use in individuals or systemically, because illicit drugs will always…

> - imprisonment is not effective at curbing drug use in individuals or systemically, because illicit drugs will always be available, see prohibition for the strongest case here I disagree that hardline policies can't work. In China, there is no social safety net for drug users (nor much for anyone else), nor is there much sympathy for it, therefore...drug abuse happens for sure, but it just doesn't survive very long…

I mean if you propose we just kill addicts it might be effective in some cold, economic sense, but it sure would be great not to do that. I don’t know why you’d use china as an example unless thats what you’re suggesting.

Say we put someone in prison then treat them for drug use and it works. This person is cured, found jesus, and will never touch another drug in their life. Why would you still keep them in prison? They’d have been sentenced to a time in prison regardless. Why? Would you propose a system of early release for cured drug offenders?

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#192

Post by kruft »

stillwithit wrote: post #152
xenospn wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the actual problem is people can’t seem to just use enough to stay functional. Given the legal opportunity to purchase heroin, most people will absolutely overdo it.

So? Then they’re out of the way. One or way or another, none of us are getting out of this alive. Not sure where the religious conviction we must save all souls comes from or has any value.

By that logic, we should remove any suicide prevention or other mental health support as well. Allowing, even encouraging, people to suffer when the very nature of their disease destroys their agency should be repugnant to everyone. Religion is a red herring here.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#193

Post by dylan604 »

legitster wrote: post #57

Drug legalization is something I have come 180 on (or at least, 90 degrees). Portland did everything! They invested huge sums in shelters, treatment programs, counsellors, etc. ODs have more than doubled, and the shelters are half empty! They are not one more social program away from cleaning out the streets. I think the experiment has radically failed and I'm ready to say I was wrong. While I don't want to go back t…

With my personal experience of knowing so many addicts that have been in/out of various recovery programs, I'm totally at a loss. I too leaned libertarian with let people do the drugs they want, but that's back when I thought people were only doing things for recreation. I didn't have experience with true addicts until I was older. I've even played with liking the idea of a version of The Wire's Hamsterdam on the sole basis of the yo-yo lifestyle of recovery/relapse is just something that has no real answer.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#194

Post by BriggyDwiggs42 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #146
wharvle wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no contradiction here. It may or may not be bad policy, but it’s not a contradiction. Nobody’s a victim when a kid falls and breaks an arm while skateboarding, but we have programs like CHIP to help kids have access to healthcare to get that arm treated, regardless.

> Nobody’s a victim when a kid falls and breaks an arm while skateboarding, but we have programs like CHIP to help kids have access to healthcare to get that arm treated, regardless. The kid is going to be fine after they are in a cast for a few weeks/months. A fentanyl addict, even with million of dollars over a few years of treatment, is more than likely never going to be OK again. Both involve moral hazard (if soc…

I’m gonna doubt that a million dollars couldn’t put a fent addict on their feet again. That’s a bold claim.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#195

Post by [deleted] »

legitster wrote: post #109
TheBlight wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Portland's program do anything to address the mental health problems underlying much of this drug abuse?

$1.3 billion statewide approved in 2021: https://www.oregon.gov/oha/HSD/AMH/Pages/index.aspx This is in addition to the ~$1.3 billion the state already paid in mental health services: https://www.corvallisadvocate.com/2021/oregon-spends-on-ment... In addition to resources available at the county level ($2 million came from police defunding): https://www.multco.us/justice-agenda/budget-priorities

[deleted]

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#196

Post by hn72774 »

xkjyeah wrote: post #185
drewg123 wrote: post #110

Nowhere in these comments have I see anybody take the position that decriminalization is not enough; drugs need to be legalized and regulated. I have a close friend whose relative is a heroin addict. According to her, a lot of overdoses are due to almost no "heroin" actually being heroin, rather its fentanyl cut to varying degrees of strength. Not knowing what you're taking, and not knowing how strong it is, can lead…

Literally, fentanyl is legal and regulated. It's used as an anaesthetic.

Not the stuff coming in from Mexico and China.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#197

Post by sokoloff »

gosub100 wrote: post #158
xenospn wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the actual problem is people can’t seem to just use enough to stay functional. Given the legal opportunity to purchase heroin, most people will absolutely overdo it.

I think this is a good point. I've never been high on opiates, but I've heard it described as "an orgasm over your whole body". How are you going to allow everyone that option and expect anyone _not_ to just check-out of reality, reduce all their other living expenses, and just live to get high?

When Bayer created heroin and brought it to market in the late 19th century, is this what happened? I don't know for sure, but I've never read about that having been a problem when it was available over the counter from a reputable brand.

Surely some people became addicted to it (not that different from alcohol, nicotine, fatty sweets, or various prescription drugs), but it didn't destroy society.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#198

Post by bluescrn »

iAMkenough wrote: post #84
gafage wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is a hard problem to solve. Criminalizing drugs and throwing addicts in jail doesn't resolve the problem.

It's not a total solution, but a jailed addict isn't breaking into your car, robbing people at knifepoint, or resorting to prostitution to fund their habit. And they should have much more limited in access to drugs.

To help the addicts and reduce reoffending, what we probably need is better jails that are less a punishment and more an enforced rehab program with high-quality mental health support. And then a better path from jail back into society.

But that's expensive.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#199

Post by kazinator »

gosub100 wrote: post #138
drewg123 wrote: post #110

Nowhere in these comments have I see anybody take the position that decriminalization is not enough; drugs need to be legalized and regulated. I have a close friend whose relative is a heroin addict. According to her, a lot of overdoses are due to almost no "heroin" actually being heroin, rather its fentanyl cut to varying degrees of strength. Not knowing what you're taking, and not knowing how strong it is, can lead…

Has there been any research into how to measure potency (of fentanyl) and cut it properly? Maybe we could keep the government out of it, and instead give information and supplies to measure the potency correctly? I've heard that one way OD's happen is the substance is not homogeneous, so they can consume half the bag fine, then one dose is super-charged and puts them into OD (because fent can be up to thousands of ti…

> Has there been any research into how to measure potency (of fentanyl) and cut it properly?

Yes?

When you're having surgery and the anesthesiologist uses a mixture of fentanyl and propofol, such that you safely wake up, they aren't just guessing.

One problem is that what's out on the street isn't necessarily fentanyl in the first place, but any one of hundreds of fentanyl analogs, which all vary in potency. You have no idea whether what you're measuring is fentanyl.

If you "give information and supplies", how do you keep the government out of it? At the very least, the government has to decriminalize what you're doing. Then what; someone has to pay for it. What about liability? If someone dies and it turns out you gave them the supplies, you're liable.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#200

Post by theossuary »

notyofriend wrote: post #150

Singapore has no drug problems. You might think what they do is extreme but it works.

Well what they do is:

- Have a government who owns almost all the land, and provide subsidized housing to over 75% of the citizens.

- Provides universal healthcare, again subsidized through the government

- And forces quotas for all ethnicities to ensure everyone is equally represented everywhere.

So I guess we could try it Singapore's way, but Republicans keep saying it's a bad idea.

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