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New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

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Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#51

Post by hedora »

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #16

Ahh New York, let me tell you how Californians get around this without needing a “fake plate”: * just take it off completely, who’s checking? * thick black plastic license plate cover. Everybody’s got them. * front plate optional! * buy one of those “digital” license plates and just set it to show the car logo instead of ID. Teslas do it! I’m just kidding by the way, California really needs to fix this problem too. T…

I feel I should point out that California has been installing license plate readers and using them for bulk surveillance databases for a long time.

A bit over a decade ago, I counted two to four such mandatory checkpoints on my commute depending on the route I took. So, somewhere in a government database, they have a log of when I went to and returned from work that year.

I’ve heard such databases go back decades and are widely used to blackmail politicians in the DC area. (Source, a rando that had had a few drinks claimed to work for the state dept. Even if they were full of it, the capability exists.)

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#52

Post by junofan »

haswell wrote: post #33
tiffanyh wrote: post #20

> ’The city will charge $15 to passenger cars that enter the central strip of Manhattan, $24 to vans and $36 to buses and large trucks.’ Shouldn’t they charge progressive less the higher the occupancy is of the vehicle. This pricing seems backwards to me.

That depends on what they’re trying to address. If the issue is primarily the presence of the vehicles themselves, it makes sense that larger vehicles take more space and cause more congestion. If “congestion” also factors in pedestrians, then those larger vehicles are increasing congestion at a higher rate than smaller vehicles, both in terms of space taken by the vehicle, and number of humans entering the area. I g…

The problem they are addressing is the MTA not having enough money. The solution is finding a politically acceptable way to address that. They’ve already raised subway fares.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#53

Post by shipscode »

thisgoesnowhere wrote: post #26
shipscode wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Status Quo seems to be working just fine?

Have you ever been in rush hour traffic in NY? You cannot possibly have this opinion if you have.

Yes lived, parked and drove in downtown NYC for 6 years. 4/5 people parking on the streets own or work in local businesses. Throwing a $350-$450/mo congestion tax their way is bs. They’re keeping the city running with their vehicles, not hurting it.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#54

Post by ok_dad »

cgriswald wrote: post #40
tiffanyh wrote: post #20

> ’The city will charge $15 to passenger cars that enter the central strip of Manhattan, $24 to vans and $36 to buses and large trucks.’ Shouldn’t they charge progressive less the higher the occupancy is of the vehicle. This pricing seems backwards to me.

If you want to maximize passengers per 'vehicle space' this is the pricing you use. While the van costs more, the per-passenger price is less at capacity. The only other option is to charge based on actual passenger count (with the price being lower per-passenger as you have more passengers). If they were to charge less for larger vehicles, people would buy larger vehicles just for carting themselves around regardles…

They should charge like $100 / number of passengers, with cheaper exceptions for very small cars and motorbikes. Then if you fill a four passenger car, it’s only $25 for the car, but a dude in a sports car by himself pays the full charge. Busses and bigger vans are pretty much free. Delivery vehicles can afford to pay the full cost of doing business. Even better if you charge by car class, so larger vehicles are more expensive.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#55

Post by Ekaros »

refulgentis wrote: post #42
Ekaros wrote: post #30

Why not just run daily lottery in previous day? With non-transferable licenses to enter. Win one and you get in, don't win one and you are barred from entering?

we can either "just" have ppl pay $15, a nice simple free market solution that doesn't limit anyone. or we can run a daily lottery and create a port of call just outside NYC for people to wait until they win the daily lottery. and administer the daily lottery. and somehow communicate daily to the winners. and really set a hard cap on entrants. "just" does seem to apply to one of those options to me, but not the secon…

Because 15 is clearly unfair price for the poor people. This only benefit the rich who already are cause for majority of emissions. Lottery is absolutely fair for everyone.

OCR at borders would be easy to implement. Just have a gate and diversion lines back to where car entering came from. And simple online sing-up system and rng run every night is extremely simple software project.

Or if car without daily lottery tickets enters without permission, just make it so that it is permanently forfeit and destroyed. Thus removing it's future emissions.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#56

Post by nojito »

Racing0461 wrote: post #8

Just like how lottery is supposed to increase funding for schools but the amount thay got brought in due to lottery was then subtracted from other sources so it was a wash. I'm assuming this is going to be the same thing unless it's earmarked for public transportation by law instead of going into a general fund. Just like gas tax and car tabs in other states that goes to "fixing the roads by people that use it the mo…

It goes directly to the MTA.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#57

Post by hamandcheese »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #25
thisgoesnowhere wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your alternative?

My alternative are things that, unfortunately, would never fly politically: 1) Regulate urban business density in coastal cities and cities more generally limited by water. 2) More multi-core metropolises where the highest density is either spread out entirely, or spread to multiple districts sufficiently far away from each other. Edit: The comment by hamandcheese showed I had forgotten this important modifier for po…

Add to that mixed zoning. It is crazy that in some places you live, work, shop, and eat each in distinct neighborhoods.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#58

Post by gafage »

throw__away7391 wrote: post #48
gafage wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low emission zones should be called instead "no poor people zones" which is what in practice they are.

You seem oblivious to the irony here—owning a car already puts you in the upper tier of wealth in the world. Talking about Manhattan specifically, this is already about the most expensive place in the world and the only place in the US with this scheme in place, adding more traffic isn’t going to change that so no point in using it as an example of anything. Plenty of countries that are not so car dependent have pede…

>owning a car already puts you in the upper tier of wealth in the world

In the context of Greater London this is absurd.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#59

Post by pxeboot »

lwansbrough wrote: post #22
pxeboot wrote: post #10

This seems like a great start, but unfortunately it will likely be so lucrative, it will make it even less politically acceptable to further reduce/ban cars in the future.

When the income pays for more transit and reduces transit times for buses, why would the public want to stop that trend?

Because cars/parking still take up far to much space in dense city centers, making them more loud, dirty and dangerous than they would be without (most) cars.

Re: New York approves the first congestion toll in the US: $15 to enter Manhattan

#60

Post by Ekaros »

Freak_NL wrote: post #43
Racing0461 wrote: post #8

Just like how lottery is supposed to increase funding for schools but the amount thay got brought in due to lottery was then subtracted from other sources so it was a wash. I'm assuming this is going to be the same thing unless it's earmarked for public transportation by law instead of going into a general fund. Just like gas tax and car tabs in other states that goes to "fixing the roads by people that use it the mo…

Congestion charges are not primarily about money. The desired effect is discouraging people from driving there. The income is a nice side effect, but not the goal.

If it was about discouraging why not total ban of all non-emergency vehicles? Or maybe allow busses and trucks, but absolutely nothing else? That would solve problem much more effectively.

Or maybe first come first serve system. If too many vehicles are inside border new ones have to wait until one leaves?

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