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Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

reuters.com

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Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#301

Post by waffleiron »

SCM-Enthusiast wrote: post #295
danielovichdk wrote: post #181

Fuck these companies that think they can break the unions our former generations built for the purpose of being treated fair. Americans don't get it. We Scandinavians are not built on a cultural foundation which circles around creating our own safety nets. We are not lucky. We worked hard for it for hundreds of years. Same thing goes for Wolt or Uber etc. They are not welcome here if they can't treat workers by their…

Yeah... As an American, i don't get it. Why is the Swedish union forcing the workers at Tesla to sign an arb agreement when they get paid much more than the average union worker in the country? Does strong union actually result in better pay? If you compare the average software salary from the US to Sweden, it seems like it's doing the opposite, no?

It's not all about pay. This is a very US view, unions can negotiate on a lot more aspects of work.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#302

Post by ilovetux »

VoxPelli wrote: post #82
mytailorisrich wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point the famed Swedish model shows its limits, IMHO. > "It's about the Swedish collective agreement model, and there is a consensus on it, both politically and between the parties in the labour market, Seko's president Gabriella Lavecchia told Reuters by email. And yet this is not a legal obligation, as far as I understand, and Tesla is acting lawfully. So the model seems to be that there are unwritten rules…

The point of the Swedish model is to avoid micro management from the state and instead of mandating work regulations through law businesses and unions can negotiate sector specific agreements that suits the very people and companies that it affects. Businesses and unions are better at knowing the needs of companies and people than what any government is. Not everything has to be achieved through laws. In Sweden we ge…

> In Sweden we generally prefer to avoid laws whenever possible, deferring to best practices, common sense and business agreements.

I think I would've agreed with this sentiment in the past.

However, the last 7-8 years in the US have shown that (at least in politics) rules need to be spelled out. We had a bunch of informal agreements of what people in certain positions should do or not do, but as we have seen someone will eventually come around and look to test the limits.

It looks like Elon Musk is looking to test the limits of business expectations in Sweden. I hope Sweden fares better than the US did when the political expectations were being challenged.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#303

Post by suoduandao3 »

InCityDreams wrote: post #203
suoduandao3 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of what Musk says and does sounds ridiculous. That doesn't make it wise to dismiss out of hand. I actually agree that a lot of unions reinforce an us-vs-them mentality that might be necessary in local disputes but certainly isn't as good as having everyone's incentives aligned. What I think Musk might be missing in this context is that European unions have a deep history in the guild system and are related not…

I'm in a far away eu country. I am surprised at the amount of support for the unions there is on this. From all sides. Don't forget- a country may have a rw .gov - that doesn't necessarily equate to the majority supporting them, or their pov's. We'd mostly just like a decent wage.

I actually viscerally dislike unions, due to my two experiences of having to work with them. But I know they can be good from my mother's testimony of her own union, and it's her historical take on how unions first formed that I shared above.

Ultimately, I think a qualified support of unions in principle is going to bring pro-union folks towards the center much more effectively than a denouncement.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#304

Post by bilvar »

VoxPelli wrote: post #241
cornholio wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is striking here is that the Government offices all use the services of PostNord. So Tesla has no choice over using PostNord, they are mandated by law to do so to receive their plates, yet a private interest group can arbitrarily deny them access to public services. There is a lot of verbiage about how Tesla is shooting itself in the foot for peanuts, and I guess it's a legitimate position to hold. The far large…

It’s easy to avoid actions like this: Sign a collective bargain with a union and all unions are bound to leave you at peace for that agreements duration. So far two international companies have refused this: Toys R Us decades ago, eventually they had to give in. Tesla now.

Yeah it's very easy, just give in to the demands of the people blackmailing you. How didn't anybody thought of that before?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#305

Post by geon »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #99
VoxPelli wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the Swedish model is to avoid micro management from the state and instead of mandating work regulations through law businesses and unions can negotiate sector specific agreements that suits the very people and companies that it affects. Businesses and unions are better at knowing the needs of companies and people than what any government is. Not everything has to be achieved through laws. In Sweden we ge…

It's not micro management, it's a major point. Again, it looks like the consensus is that Tesla must accept a collective agreement (content to be left to the parties to negotiate). So why is that not mandated? IMHO, you can't be outraged that Tesla is refusing, or at least trying not to have one, when the law effectively says that they don't have to. The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look…

I haven’t seen anyone outraged with tesla. If anything, we swedes are confounded that tesla can’t seem to understand how running a business works in sweden. It’s not that hard.

And just like tesla have the right to refuse signing, the people of sweden has the right to strike.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#306

Post by scbrg »

knallfrosch wrote: post #286
rob74 wrote: post #123

> A Swedish court said on Thursday that PostNord did not, for the time being, need to deliver licence plates to the electric carmaker that were being blocked by the postal service’s workers, in the latest twist in a battle over collective bargaining agreements. How exactly is this done? Do they refuse to accept the license plates when the Swedish Transport Agency wants to drop them off? Or do they accept the plates,…

They just don't deliver the license plates. Tesla can go and pick them off at the postal center themselves. I imagine they're just thrown into the corner of a warehouse somewhere.

> Tesla can go and pick them off at the postal center themselves.

No. You cannot waltz into a postal center, say "oh, that there stuff is mine" and then leave with it.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#307

Post by ajross »

pydry wrote: post #175
ajross wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a sympathy strike involves a union deciding to take industrial action against an organisation to support another unions industrial action Interestingly that's not quite what's happening either. The workers in question are not in a union. IF Metall is the union being supported, and merely wants to represent them (more correctly, they don't want a non-union shop operating in their market). Everyone is just nuts here.…

Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe. This isn't the first time this type of thing has happened. Walmart famously crashed and burned in Germany, for example, because they treated the German unions like uppity communists.

> Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe.

But... Tesla never even got that far. They just hired some people who apparently wanted the jobs? No one got fired or threatened, no bribes are alleged. It really seems like IF Metall fired first, no?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#308

Post by capableweb »

peterfirefly wrote: post #237
capableweb wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The important detail which most people seem to miss is that Tesla's workers aren't behind this. They don't want to unionize, because there's no reason to. > The IF Metall union is striking because they just want to get their cut. What sort of people do you think IF Metall is made up of? It's the second largest union in Sweden, the people who are a part of the union are also workers at Tesla and other companies. It'…

The point is that it's not Tesla's employees that are behind it. It is people working elsewhere -- or rather, the management of the labour unions that organize those other people.

> The point is that it's not Tesla's employees that are behind it.

Unions don't do solidarity strikes across the entire Nordics without having the support of the people they're trying to help.

> It is people working elsewhere -- or rather, the management of the labour unions that organize those other people.

The people you call "the management of the labour unions" are workers just like the rest. Again, they are not "career-unionists", they are workers who care about worker rights, just like all the other people at the other unions joining the strike.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#309

Post by avgcorrection »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #99
VoxPelli wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the Swedish model is to avoid micro management from the state and instead of mandating work regulations through law businesses and unions can negotiate sector specific agreements that suits the very people and companies that it affects. Businesses and unions are better at knowing the needs of companies and people than what any government is. Not everything has to be achieved through laws. In Sweden we ge…

It's not micro management, it's a major point. Again, it looks like the consensus is that Tesla must accept a collective agreement (content to be left to the parties to negotiate). So why is that not mandated? IMHO, you can't be outraged that Tesla is refusing, or at least trying not to have one, when the law effectively says that they don't have to. The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look…

> The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look 'nicer' than others: Maybe effective but actually quite brutal.

You went from calling this a bit “odd” and “a peculiarity” to “actually quite brutal” in the span of two comments. Jesus Christ the level of JAQing off in these Tesla threads from “the outside” (I wonder where) is insane.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#310

Post by avgcorrection »

misja111 wrote: post #256
danielovichdk wrote: post #181

Fuck these companies that think they can break the unions our former generations built for the purpose of being treated fair. Americans don't get it. We Scandinavians are not built on a cultural foundation which circles around creating our own safety nets. We are not lucky. We worked hard for it for hundreds of years. Same thing goes for Wolt or Uber etc. They are not welcome here if they can't treat workers by their…

> We are not lucky. We worked hard for it for hundreds of years. No, you are lucky, because your ancestors worked hard for it for hundreds of years.

... and if we continue to work for it as well then we are both lucky as well as reaping the fruits of our own labor. But I’m sure you don’t know (or care) about that part.
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