Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 409 posts

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#81

Post by drakonka »

mongol wrote: post #75
drakonka wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just IF Metall vs Tesla in practice. The result of this whole thing will impact Swedish labor standards as a whole by setting a critical precedent for both companies and unions. I'm not part of IF Metall, but also not naive enough to think this power struggle won't affect me or people I care about working in Sweden in the future.

It will affect you either way. It is difficult to tell exactly how but a union win will embolden the unions in Sweden general, and it is not certain that is an all out win. I realize that embolden is not a neutral word, but what is on the other side of the balance scale is investments in new jobs in Sweden vs elsewhere. Perhaps the balance will still be a net benefit to Sweden but we will see. I would have an easier…

The fact that it will affect me either way is kind of my point in saying this is not just IF Metall vs Tesla. I consider a union win to be the best outcome here.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#82

Post by VoxPelli »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #18
nabla9 wrote: post #2

Small differences in labor law make all the difference. In Finland, Tesla repair shops follow the minimums stated in collective agreements and Musk probably don't even know about it. In Sweden it's issue for him. Finland has generally applicable collective agreements where employers should observe at least the provisions of a national collective agreement considered representative in the relevant sector. When a colle…

At this point the famed Swedish model shows its limits, IMHO. > "It's about the Swedish collective agreement model, and there is a consensus on it, both politically and between the parties in the labour market, Seko's president Gabriella Lavecchia told Reuters by email. And yet this is not a legal obligation, as far as I understand, and Tesla is acting lawfully. So the model seems to be that there are unwritten rules…

The point of the Swedish model is to avoid micro management from the state and instead of mandating work regulations through law businesses and unions can negotiate sector specific agreements that suits the very people and companies that it affects.

Businesses and unions are better at knowing the needs of companies and people than what any government is.

Not everything has to be achieved through laws.

In Sweden we generally prefer to avoid laws whenever possible, deferring to best practices, common sense and business agreements.

That’s a much much nicer model than what we now get from eg EU where we get micro-level law making that deals with everything and more

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#83

Post by eddtries »

sigmoid10 wrote: post #31
eddtries wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polestars are pretty nice! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polestar_3

That car starts at ~$90k. So maybe it's nice to have, but most people can't.

The Tesla Model 3 is like $75k out here so it's not much more!

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#84

Post by eddtries »

mongol wrote: post #79
eddtries wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be true if there were not repercussions for the wider Swedish model, but since there are repercussions of rolling over it is Sweden vs Tesla

You can be certain that there are plenty of Swedes that see it differently, they are just less vocal

Perhaps? But everyone I've spoken to have been pretty vocal about it, although more along the lines of "Musk is a tool"

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#85

Post by VoxPelli »

hiatus wrote: post #40
VoxPelli wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both, unlike in the US the Swedish post office is privatized and handled by multiple companies, eg Citymail also offers postal services. PostNord has won the tender with the Swedish transport authority though and as such is the one they should use. PostNord is the result of the merger between the privatized (but state owned) Swedish and Danish postal services. But also – union rights and postal rights needs to be wei…

I am surprised that in this case Swedes value individual rights over their duty to the public.

Collective rights against an individual company*

Sweden protects the rights of workers

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#86

Post by VoxPelli »

mongol wrote: post #44
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Striking is a constitutionally protected right in Sweden. The belief of PostNord is that the right of their employees to strike weighs higher than PostNord's obligation to deliver mail.

Not that simple. RF states striking as a protected right for an association of employees. It is not an individually protected right. "Stridsåtgärder på arbetsmarknaden [K2]14 § En förening av arbetstagare samt arbetsgivare och en förening av arbetsgivare har rätt att vidta stridsåtgärder på arbetsmarknaden, om inte annat följer av lag eller avtal. "

Which is what it is in this case, a union which strikes

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#87

Post by VoxPelli »

hiatus wrote: post #64
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is based on pre-stated principles, which the other party is capable of fulfilling. This makes it non-arbitrary.

I don't understand how my statement of firemen refusing to put out a fire because they didn't like the person is arbitrary. If they publicly stated they do not like the person because of their politics and will refuse to put out fires for anyone supporting that party does that make it okay to not put out a fire on their house?

Not liking someone is arbitrary and subjective

Swedish unions are not subjecting Tesla to strikes because they dislike Tesla or Musk, they are doing it to ensure they sign a collective bargain

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#88

Post by VoxPelli »

ysofunny wrote: post #36

does this mean sweeden is going to import chinese EVs??

We are quite capable of producing our own vehicles and batteries

Volvo Cars, Polestar, Volvo AB, Scania, Koenigsegg, Northvolt and also new ones like Emily GT, Candella, Einride etc Even our own fighter jets, submarines and military ships through Saab.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#89

Post by VoxPelli »

sigmoid10 wrote: post #31
eddtries wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polestars are pretty nice! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polestar_3

That car starts at ~$90k. So maybe it's nice to have, but most people can't.

The Volvo EX30 will apparently be competitively priced and manufactured in Belgium for the European market eventually

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#90

Post by anonymouskimmer »

hiatus wrote: post #64
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is based on pre-stated principles, which the other party is capable of fulfilling. This makes it non-arbitrary.

I don't understand how my statement of firemen refusing to put out a fire because they didn't like the person is arbitrary. If they publicly stated they do not like the person because of their politics and will refuse to put out fires for anyone supporting that party does that make it okay to not put out a fire on their house?

It doesn't make it okay, but yes, it does make it non-arbitrary. But what VoxPelli wrote regarding your original statement.
Post reply on HN