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Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

reuters.com

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Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#101

Post by anonymouskimmer »

mongol wrote: post #63
RandomLensman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question on Swedish law: Can PostNord even know who is a union member and who is not? Are only union members allowed to strike?

On the second question - my understanding is that non-union associated employees do not have a protected right to strike, as individual employeees. You can't just refuse work and say "I strike!" At least their rights are weaker. Much of Swedish labor laws are about associations of employees (=unions) and associations of employers. As an individual, your rights are not the same. We will see what the courts say in the…

I'm curious as to whether an "association" legally implies those who have membership in a union, or more generally covers coordinated action between union members and non-members, or even coordinated action between non-members alone.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#102

Post by Hikikomori »

RandomLensman wrote: post #47
mongol wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find strange is that when a subset of employees strike, PostNord doesn't feel obligated to deliver at all, even though they have employees that are not part of the union and are not covered by the strike. This while PostNord has legal obligations to deliver mail. Consider a "model factory" where 60 % of employees are union members. A strike is initiated and those 60% go on strike. It is reasonable to expect th…

Question on Swedish law: Can PostNord even know who is a union member and who is not? Are only union members allowed to strike?

No PostNord doesn't know and cannot ask.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#103

Post by VoxPelli »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #99
VoxPelli wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the Swedish model is to avoid micro management from the state and instead of mandating work regulations through law businesses and unions can negotiate sector specific agreements that suits the very people and companies that it affects. Businesses and unions are better at knowing the needs of companies and people than what any government is. Not everything has to be achieved through laws. In Sweden we ge…

It's not micro management, it's a major point. Again, it looks like the consensus is that Tesla must accept a collective agreement (content to be left to the parties to negotiate). So why is that not mandated? IMHO, you can't be outraged that Tesla is refusing, or at least trying not to have one, when the law effectively says that they don't have to. The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look…

It’s there if employees want it and in eg many smaller companies there are no such agreements.

It’s up to the companies and unions to handle.

When Tesla has refused that for 5 years + have a global policy to refuse, then they are not handling it, which makes companies and unions react.

To be clear: Companies in Sweden largely prefer this model over one governed by law.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#104

Post by VoxPelli »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #90
hiatus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how my statement of firemen refusing to put out a fire because they didn't like the person is arbitrary. If they publicly stated they do not like the person because of their politics and will refuse to put out fires for anyone supporting that party does that make it okay to not put out a fire on their house?

It doesn't make it okay, but yes, it does make it non-arbitrary. But what VoxPelli wrote regarding your original statement.

And important to note as well: Swedish firefighters are not refusing to put out fires at Tesla workshops

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#105

Post by VoxPelli »

hiatus wrote: post #57
Novosell wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their "duty to the public" being to deliver license plates to Tesla? Really?

Their duty is to deliver mail is it not? Should mail carriers refuse to deliver political flyers because they disagree with the message??

They are not refusing based on content, they are refusing based on recipient – two very different things.

It just so happens that license plates are one of the things that gets blocked. Not because they are license plates but because Tesla is the receiver.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#106

Post by abelsson »

schiffern wrote: post #37
tyingq wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, they could research the business climate and laws in a country before establishing a presence. Then feel free to buck established practice, but at least know the potential consequences.

Sure, in that case maybe Tesla would never have entered Sweden, but what good is that? It's bad for Sweden, Tesla, and the environment. Discovering this Swedish 'quirk' then vs. now wouldn't make Tesla any more likely to roll over to extralegal bullying tactics.

Tesla is free to not sign a CBA, and union members are free to not serve Tesla. Swedish labor market is very free (as in unencumbered by laws and government intervention).

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#107

Post by InitialLastName »

taylodl wrote: post #94
mxchris2121 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That solution relies on a lot of things having a greater effect than they actually do. It fits the pie in the sky solutions libertarians seem to like so much. Such as high healthcare costs can be fixed by creating greater choice via lowering the barrier of entry to becoming a doctor. The free market, in fact, is not actually the solution of all of society’s ills. Unions raise wages. Anti union laws and or lack of uni…

- Libertarians assume more job mobility than actually exists. - Libertarians overlook all the problems with markets that Adam Smith identified. It's as though they never read the second half of the book. - Libertarians overlook how existing players raise barriers to entry for existing markets. - Libertarians overlook the collusion between market players and government to share power and wealth between both. - Liberta…

Libertarians are just people who thought they could learn everything they needed from studying economics without learning any history or sociology.

Everything has a simple solution until humans get complicated.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#108

Post by SuperNinKenDo »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #60
jltsiren wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every culture has its own unwritten rules and customs. If you want to do business in a foreign culture, it's your responsibility to learn those customs and adapt to them. If you refuse to adapt and your business suffers because of the backlash, the cause of failure was your cultural insensitivity and/or ignorance.

> Every culture has its own unwritten rules and customs. Many cultures have bribery as an unwritten rule and custom. Every official you run across is expecting a small bribe. Should companies adopt that culture as well?

That actually seems like a really interesting question without an immediately obvious answer.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#109

Post by SuperNinKenDo »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #99
VoxPelli wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the Swedish model is to avoid micro management from the state and instead of mandating work regulations through law businesses and unions can negotiate sector specific agreements that suits the very people and companies that it affects. Businesses and unions are better at knowing the needs of companies and people than what any government is. Not everything has to be achieved through laws. In Sweden we ge…

It's not micro management, it's a major point. Again, it looks like the consensus is that Tesla must accept a collective agreement (content to be left to the parties to negotiate). So why is that not mandated? IMHO, you can't be outraged that Tesla is refusing, or at least trying not to have one, when the law effectively says that they don't have to. The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look…

Who said Sweden does things this way in order to look nice?

Not relying on laws like this allows for more adaptability to local conditions or preferences, if the system allows this, while also having mechanisms for enforcement when a company has simply decided "we don't do business that way, and we don't care if that runs counter to the local norms".

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#110

Post by Barrin92 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #99
VoxPelli wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the Swedish model is to avoid micro management from the state and instead of mandating work regulations through law businesses and unions can negotiate sector specific agreements that suits the very people and companies that it affects. Businesses and unions are better at knowing the needs of companies and people than what any government is. Not everything has to be achieved through laws. In Sweden we ge…

It's not micro management, it's a major point. Again, it looks like the consensus is that Tesla must accept a collective agreement (content to be left to the parties to negotiate). So why is that not mandated? IMHO, you can't be outraged that Tesla is refusing, or at least trying not to have one, when the law effectively says that they don't have to. The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look…

>The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look 'nicer' than others

It's not supposed to be nice. Swedish labour has understood a simple reality, you don't fight on your opponents terms. Elon Musk has a competitive advantage at hiring lawyers and buying politicians. So they pick the battle where they can actually win, collectively on the factory floor.

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