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Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

theregister.com

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Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#411

Post by elteto »

Apocryphon wrote: post #356
elteto wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t see anything wrong with public workers selectively punishing _one_ entity of their arbitrary choosing? Unchecked power is bad. Doesn’t matter if it’s a government, a company or a union.

From your previous comment, you’re stating you are okay if the union declined to deliver everyone’s mail, which sounds like you’re fine with unchecked power that expresses itself without discrimination.

Correct. I’m not contesting the power to strike, I’m contesting the power to selectively target entities in such strikes.

I don’t know if you thought there was a contradiction there, but I don’t see it.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#412

Post by ivarmedi »

carlosjobim wrote: post #304
othorns wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unions don't own the goverment. Or do you also belive that the nordics is full of socialists? And I'd much rather be a modern nordic country as compared to the USA where democracy is constantly threatened and bribing politicians is perfectly legal as long as you call it lobbying, the name a few modern examples

> Or do you also belive that the nordics is full of socialists? Well, yes. Although the world is a lot more complicated than left vs right, the socialist parties have generally been the largest parties in Nordic countries, and the "conservative" parties do not rock the boat too much when they're in power. Because the voters wouldn't accept that. > compared to the USA It's a matter of taste and of values, but directly…

> Because the voters wouldn't accept that.

So in other words the unions don't own the government so much as they own the voters (or is it the other way around)? I'd call a decision that voters agree on democracy.

> The unions "own" the government in the extent that they where tightly connected to the Socialist Democratic party that ruled Sweden for decades and are responsible for much of today's legislation. If you were a member of a union, they would on your behalf sign you up as a member of the Socialist Democratic party, until 1991.

Another explanation could be that both sides of the political spectrum agrees and thinks that the power re: labor decisions such as this _should_ lie with the unions, regardless of left/right lean. Even the "right" parties in Sweden are pro unions.

> Another example is the government church in all the nordic countries, which is not much talked about, but indeed strange to people from other backgrounds.

Huh? This hasn't been the case on paper since the year 2000 in Sweden, but in practice far longer than that. The church might still be called "Church of Sweden", but it has nothing to do with the government.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#413

Post by bee_rider »

orwin wrote: post #397
bee_rider wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure what exactly the rules are in these foreign countries, but it doesn’t seem unbelievable that the state could end up bound by a contract with the union. In a good country, the state also follows rules and laws and makes contracts, after all. Particularly, as you note, in the case of a pseudo-government agency like Postnord. The only tricky bit, IMO, is the requirement that the plates must be delivered by…

Please, if you want to call it pseudo-something, call it pseudo-state agency. The government own nothing except their personal stuff, hopefully. Its owned by the State. Two of them even. One of them can call for a board meeting and fire the CEO (who does not have any right to force his employees). But it is not owned by the government. Please continue the discussion,i just wanted it out.

That’s fair, I was just sticking to the language used in the comment I responded to.

Of course, it is an easy mistake for those of us in the US to make; we tend to use “government” more generally. I guess because we used the name “states” for our province-sized administrative unit thingies.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#414

Post by appleskeptic »

jakderrida wrote: post #279
appleskeptic wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violent strikers should go to jail.

It's pathetic how your position on violent strikebreakers is so lenient that you don't even feel them worth mentioning. Sort of a testament to how effective American brainwashing is. It's equally pathetic that you think the role of the state is to expend unlimited funds to keep the enemies of private enterprises incarcerated, even when it would cost us all far more than adopting an enlightened policy regarding collec…

Violent strike breakers should go to jail too.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#415

Post by appleskeptic »

fragmede wrote: post #332
johngladtj wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it funny how in every example I have ever seen of "companies oppressing poor workers on strike" every single time the workers started it by doing illegal and wrong things, and attempting to force the company to give in by force. Every. Single. Time. If someone can give me one example where the poor oppressed strikers were 100% in the right and did not actually start with the violence or credible threat of viol…

To my knowledge, healthcare workers at Kaiser Permanente of California haven't burned any buildings down or had a brawl in the middle of the parking lot. The Starbucks workers strike was also non-violent. The most recent Writers guild of America strike didn't seem violent to me, but maybe that's Hollywood. The Oakland teachers union strike also didn't result in bloodshed as far as I know, but also it's Oakland.

He means cases where management is accused of violence against the strikers.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#416

Post by peterfirefly »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #249
robertlagrant wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. I'm not debating the validity of whether people should leave Tesla and go work somewhere else. I'm saying that it's not a strike if you're just refusing service to a customer. A strike - whether because of your circumstances or another's - is you downing tools and stopping working.

> it's not a strike if you're just refusing service to a customer...a strike...is you downing tools and stopping working This hasn't been what a strike has meant in Scandinavia for a century. I'm American. I broadly think unions are ineffective and corrupt. But it's ridiculous to claim this strike is unprecedented. Even the pattern of an American company being flummoxed by it is deeply precedented. If you want to do…

> If you want to do business in the Nordic countries, you respect the collective-bargaining process.

And if you want to do business in many other countries, you have to pay bribes -- or campaign contributions or hire someone's incompetent nephew or hire people with the right "discriminated against" skin colour. That's not legal, either.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#417

Post by Apocryphon »

elteto wrote: post #411
Apocryphon wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your previous comment, you’re stating you are okay if the union declined to deliver everyone’s mail, which sounds like you’re fine with unchecked power that expresses itself without discrimination.

Correct. I’m not contesting the power to strike, I’m contesting the power to selectively target entities in such strikes. I don’t know if you thought there was a contradiction there, but I don’t see it.

It doesn’t make sense to consider indiscriminate withholding of services through a strike not “unchecked power,” while selecting specific targets (which is far less disruptive to the market as a whole) as such.

It’s also not an arbitrary choice. It’s a business that’s clearly in dispute with another union, that this union has decided to intervene on behalf of. It’s not like they’re striking against a company that was just minding its own business.

Perhaps there can be labor relations boards and anti-discrimination regulation and such to prevent abuse of selective striking, but this is obviously a situation where everyone is a player and knows what game they’re playing.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#418

Post by appleskeptic »

hooverd wrote: post #214
johngladtj wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it funny how in every example I have ever seen of "companies oppressing poor workers on strike" every single time the workers started it by doing illegal and wrong things, and attempting to force the company to give in by force. Every. Single. Time. If someone can give me one example where the poor oppressed strikers were 100% in the right and did not actually start with the violence or credible threat of viol…

Ah, so strikers not being 100% perfect victims justifies it. Got it.

Views on collective responsibility for riots have changed a lot. These days, it's only the individual rioters who commit specific crimes that are thought of as bearing responsibility. But before the 1960s or so, a violent crowd was seen as collectively responsible, and it wouldn't have been considered unjustified to treat them accordingly, the way you'd be justified in violent self-defense against an individual rioter today.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#419

Post by appleskeptic »

avgcorrection wrote: post #18
appleskeptic wrote: post #2

Striking should be legal, but firing employees for striking should also be legal.

Should woulda. Maybe enough people would strike if your kinda law would go into effect so that the law couldn’t be maintained. Daily reminder that Norway has NHO, a national union for employers/enterprises. (I don’t like it but it is what is.)

I'm not saying you should have to fire them. But you should be able to.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#420

Post by appleskeptic »

bee_rider wrote: post #156
appleskeptic wrote: post #2

Striking should be legal, but firing employees for striking should also be legal.

Companies and unions have contracts. It isn’t a matter of what’s legal or not, but what they were able to negotiate for. Organizations should have wide latitude in terms of what sorts of contracts they bind themselves to, and that includes additional requirements for firing union members. It’s all part of the negotiation.

This is false. Labor laws passed in the 1900s in most Western countries give you a right to strike without the risk of getting fired. It doesn't have to be bargained for. There's lots of caveats, but that's the general rule.
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