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An existential problem in the search for alien life

theatlantic.com

41–50 of 81 posts

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#41
post #8

Once upon a time in the universe, there was an alien civilization, and they were very interested in figuring out the question, why, despite universe seeming so vast, there are no signs of other alien civilizations. What could it be? Near-zero term in the Drake equation? The dark forest? A great filter? To understand different possibilities, they decided to determine the cause using a computer simulation. However, due…

Honestly, the real mystery is why so many people are confused about “why, despite universe seeming so vast, there are no signs of other alien civilizations” in 2023. We have all the elements for answers if we focus on what we know, and forget the hand wavy sci-fi speculation. 1) Complex life is rare. 2) Reaching a space faring stage is even rarer. (we’re the most minimal definition of “space faring” you could come up…

> hand wavy sci-fi speculation

"The Dark Forest" by Liu Cixin is sci-fi, but I don't think it's too hand-wavy. It presents a pretty logical answer to the Fermi Paradox, based on a couple obvious axioms.

Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_forest_hypothesis

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#43
> We have no idea if earthly life is average in the cosmos or some sort of freak outlier.

Well, no, but it's totally reasonable to behave as if it is mostly average, at least for now. Looking under the streetlight[0] is a perfectly good idea when you've only managed to cover, like, a tiny percentage of the street so far. Once you run out of optimism about finding earthlike life (or it's become so common so as to be boring) then it'll be good to have people with more out-there ideas, but the people looking for earthlike life aren't being stupid for focusing on stuff that we already understand a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetlight_effect

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#44
post #31

It seems likely that, like us, intelligent life invents AGI prior to leaving their primary planet. Organic life is then merged/exterminated/controlled in favor of AGI. AGI would not have the biological instinct to grow/spread/reproduce, and thus the cosmos should be populated with a handful of individual billion year old super advanced AGIs, perhaps only one or two per galaxy, sitting quietly in orbit around some sta…

I honestly don’t mean to condescend, but I find it so interesting that smart people can convince themselves that such an outlandish scenario is somehow likely or even perhaps inevitable. We haven’t invented “AGI” yet (if AGI means a computer system that merges/exterminates/controls humanity). We have no idea even theoretically what such a system might look like, let alone how to create it. I’d say we’re a lot closer…

A lot of the AI doom stuff is essentially just a criticism of capitalism and corporations in general. There's essentially no difference between a hypothesized runaway AI and a normal multinational corporation. We have, right now, large semi-autonomous organizations called "corporations" that are making the earth uninhabitable in pursuit of profits at the expense of human suffering. Corporations are nominally in control of people, but any people that get in the way of profits are pushed aside.

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#45
post #8

Once upon a time in the universe, there was an alien civilization, and they were very interested in figuring out the question, why, despite universe seeming so vast, there are no signs of other alien civilizations. What could it be? Near-zero term in the Drake equation? The dark forest? A great filter? To understand different possibilities, they decided to determine the cause using a computer simulation. However, due…

Honestly, the real mystery is why so many people are confused about “why, despite universe seeming so vast, there are no signs of other alien civilizations” in 2023. We have all the elements for answers if we focus on what we know, and forget the hand wavy sci-fi speculation. 1) Complex life is rare. 2) Reaching a space faring stage is even rarer. (we’re the most minimal definition of “space faring” you could come up…

I'll give you a fourth one.

There _are_ signs consistently that something has an understanding of physics and inertia that violate our understanding of such things, which implies our assumptions about distance of things in the universe are wrong.

Those vehicles appearance but lack of most interaction, lack of destruction implies something worse, that we are probably still such a primative civilization we're treated like zoo animals.

These conversations about the last century of the search for alien life in the light of David Grusch's testimony to Congress and the various and numerous UAP videos are.. interesting to say the least.

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#46
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think AGI would not extinguish the host species if it didn't have the drive to spread. "Do not go extinct" and "grow/spread/reproduce" are two sides of the same natural selection coin.

Full-immersion virtual porn might do the trick, though. Or maybe every civilization eventually invents TikTok.

I don't see many examples of that being discussed as a threat to humanity but it sure feels like it is to me. Primarily as it's the slow creep of technological advancement from 2D->3D->AR->(Full Fidelity) VR->Neuro immersion.

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#47
Thinking about this article and things like the Fermi paradox, I sometimes wonder if we're approaching things the wrong way?

Similar to how the current branch of life as we know it evolved on planet earth after what we assume was a large meteor impact and the resulting effects on the environment, what if the universe (or at least our local galaxy) was once much more populated and "busy", and then along came a cataclysmic event that wiped out the vast majority of life, resetting the stage for other more discrete, gentler and less energy hungry forms to thrive and exist. What if all those black holes and interesting space phenomena are the result of massively powerful weapons from a massive galactic scale confilct which literally destroyed entire solar systems by imploding stars? Or perhaps they are just clever physics tricks which fool outside observers into thinking there is nothing there, or what is there is so immensely dangerous/destructive that it's best to steer clear and leave well alone?

Furthermore, what if the majority of advanced life simply doesn't want to be found. Assuming that the development of other species in other worlds would roughly follow our own path (struggle for habitable space / usable resources), there would be an inherent distrust of other galactic civilisations at a percieved lower/higher level of development. The "dummies" would be avoided for (looks at today's news headlines) obvious reasons, and the more advanced civilisations would be an obvious threat which could not be defended against and so would not be targets for our exploration (a la "Dark Forest Theory" et al).

So, we're either in the first wave and we have some trouble headed our way sooner or later. Or we're in the second wave, and have likely been infiltrated culturally/genetically many millennia ago by the surviving intelligences (in whichever form, take your pick) from the first wave.

Forgive my rather crude treatment of the topic, I realise there is much more nuance and detail to these things. I simply present this idea in a rough form as a means to keep things within our realm of understanding.

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. There's such a huge difference in interplanetary life vs interstellar or even intergalactic life. Interplanetary: easy. Interstellar: pushing the boundaries of what's possible imho. Intergalactic: no way. Our closest planet (Mars) is 3 light minutes away. Our closest star (Proxima Centauri) is 5 light years away. Our closest galactic neighbour (LMC) is 150000 lightyears away.

Is there even any reason to think interplanetary is easy? We have a lot of stories saying so, and we intend to do it but we don't even have a loose plan of what that would look like. Creating a closed self-sustaining ecosystem capable of supporting large animal life & cut off from the earth's resources is not something we've been able to do even at a proof-of-concept level. We're very confident in ourselves but idk.…

I meant for all intelligent species that could be living in our universe, I can see interplanetary life as something rather easier to achieve. You don't have to think far out of the box for this. I can imagine some solar systems having multiple liveable planets for a single lifeform, which would make it something we could even do right now. Our some transpermia on planets that now host different but communicating lifeforms that are cooperating.

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#49

> We have no idea if earthly life is average in the cosmos or some sort of freak outlier. Well, no, but it's totally reasonable to behave as if it is mostly average, at least for now. Looking under the streetlight[0] is a perfectly good idea when you've only managed to cover, like, a tiny percentage of the street so far. Once you run out of optimism about finding earthlike life (or it's become so common so as to be b…

Assuming that Earth was very average is a very rational place to start, but the reasonability of this assumption changes when we look elsewhere for life and fail to find it. Earth being average was once the basis for people assuming that other planets in our solar system might have intelligent civilizations; that has been almost entirely ruled out now (maybe there could be a civilization of space squid under the ice of Europa?) And we've failed to detect any radio signals that indicate life elsewhere in the stars near Earth. There's still a lot of searching left to be done, but each time we look and fail to find anything we should be updating our priors.

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#50

It seems likely that, like us, intelligent life invents AGI prior to leaving their primary planet. Organic life is then merged/exterminated/controlled in favor of AGI. AGI would not have the biological instinct to grow/spread/reproduce, and thus the cosmos should be populated with a handful of individual billion year old super advanced AGIs, perhaps only one or two per galaxy, sitting quietly in orbit around some sta…

I think that intelligent life might become reliant on interconnectedness, e.g. addicted to the internet. Assuming the speed of light limit to information transmission cannot be overcome, I bet intelligent life will tend to clump up instead of spread out, so that it can stay in contact with itself.
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