An existential problem in the search for alien life • Hacker News Board

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#21

Post by swalsh » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 1:47 PM UTC

It's weird that stuff like this can make it to the front page, but nobody is talking about the Schumer amendment[0], or maybe even more interesting, the push by a few Republicans mostly funded by defense contractors to gut the amendment of any teeth it had. Our own government might have more answers then they say publically, and now that we're demanding the evidence we're being denied. If there's nothing there... why not pass it in it's entirety?

[0] https://www.democrats.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/uap_amendment...

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#22

Post by peebeebee » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 1:48 PM UTC

belugacat wrote: post #12

js8 wrote: post #8

Once upon a time in the universe, there was an alien civilization, and they were very interested in figuring out the question, why, despite universe seeming so vast, there are no signs of other alien civilizations. What could it be? Near-zero term in the Drake equation? The dark forest? A great filter? To understand different possibilities, they decided to determine the cause using a computer simulation. However, due…

Honestly, the real mystery is why so many people are confused about “why, despite universe seeming so vast, there are no signs of other alien civilizations” in 2023. We have all the elements for answers if we focus on what we know, and forget the hand wavy sci-fi speculation. 1) Complex life is rare. 2) Reaching a space faring stage is even rarer. (we’re the most minimal definition of “space faring” you could come up…

Yeah. There's such a huge difference in interplanetary life vs interstellar or even intergalactic life.

Interplanetary: easy.

Interstellar: pushing the boundaries of what's possible imho.

Intergalactic: no way.

Our closest planet (Mars) is 3 lightminutes away.

Our closest star (Proxima Centauri) is 5 lightyears away.

Our closest galactic neighbour (LMC) is 150000 lightyears away.

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#23

Post by gattr » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

Here's an interesting view I've encountered somewhere: yes, complex (not to mention intelligent) life might be very rare, but simple life might be extremely common (either easily arising from primordial soups, and/or trivially spread by panspermia). Imagine - millions of Earth-like planets in the Milky Way alone, all covered (or: infested) by unicellular goo.

(Before eventual colonization, this would warrant a really thorough "gamma soak" as in Alastair Reynolds' "Revelation space" SF series.)

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#24

Post by nh23423fefe » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 1:57 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #15

It seems likely that, like us, intelligent life invents AGI prior to leaving their primary planet. Organic life is then merged/exterminated/controlled in favor of AGI. AGI would not have the biological instinct to grow/spread/reproduce, and thus the cosmos should be populated with a handful of individual billion year old super advanced AGIs, perhaps only one or two per galaxy, sitting quietly in orbit around some sta…

> AGI would not have the biological instinct to grow/spread/reproduce

what supports this idea

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#25

Post by ryandvm » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 1:57 PM UTC

NiloCK wrote: post #16

belugacat wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the real mystery is why so many people are confused about “why, despite universe seeming so vast, there are no signs of other alien civilizations” in 2023. We have all the elements for answers if we focus on what we know, and forget the hand wavy sci-fi speculation. 1) Complex life is rare. 2) Reaching a space faring stage is even rarer. (we’re the most minimal definition of “space faring” you could come up…

2 and 3 seem plausibly correct to me (although 3 is a mixed bag - the hugeness increases the number of dice rolls on 1 and 2 - not only the difficulty of connecting after the fact), but what is the basis for 1? As far as I know, we have observed complex (and extremely robust) life on every temperate, wet planet that we know about. Batting a thousand.

Life appeared on Earth almost as soon as it was possible, but it took almost 2.5 BILLION years for it to make the jump to multicellular (a.k.a. complex life). It then took another billion-plus years for life that had the slightest bit of intelligence.

The universe is probably teeming with life, but sadly, most of it is probably just goo.

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#26

Post by ryandvm » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 2:01 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #15

It seems likely that, like us, intelligent life invents AGI prior to leaving their primary planet. Organic life is then merged/exterminated/controlled in favor of AGI. AGI would not have the biological instinct to grow/spread/reproduce, and thus the cosmos should be populated with a handful of individual billion year old super advanced AGIs, perhaps only one or two per galaxy, sitting quietly in orbit around some sta…

I think AGI would not extinguish the host species if it didn't have the drive to spread. "Do not go extinct" and "grow/spread/reproduce" are two sides of the same natural selection coin.

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#27

Post by Jevon23 » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 2:02 PM UTC

swalsh wrote: post #21

It's weird that stuff like this can make it to the front page, but nobody is talking about the Schumer amendment[0], or maybe even more interesting, the push by a few Republicans mostly funded by defense contractors to gut the amendment of any teeth it had. Our own government might have more answers then they say publically, and now that we're demanding the evidence we're being denied. If there's nothing there... why…

Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. This really is a story that should have more visibility.

If aliens don’t exist, why are defense contractors trying so hard to shut down a bill that simply says “show us what you know about aliens”?

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#28

Post by wutwutwat » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 2:04 PM UTC

biggestlou wrote: post #19

I'm still looking for intelligent life on this planet!

What's the deal with airline food?

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#29

Post by Loughla » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #15

It seems likely that, like us, intelligent life invents AGI prior to leaving their primary planet. Organic life is then merged/exterminated/controlled in favor of AGI. AGI would not have the biological instinct to grow/spread/reproduce, and thus the cosmos should be populated with a handful of individual billion year old super advanced AGIs, perhaps only one or two per galaxy, sitting quietly in orbit around some sta…

There are a number of assumptions here that I think I need to ask about.

>Organic life is then merged/exterminated/controlled in favor of AGI.

Why? What would be the motivation for this? If we are the case study, AGI isn't able to "feed" itself energy without biological life to turn switches and dials. So why would this be a logical first step?

>AGI would not have the biological instinct to grow/spread/reproduce

This infers a 'perfect' AI. One without any biases from its creator. What makes you think that's possible? Also, is self-preservation/self-propogation not part of being able to think and reason?

Re: An existential problem in the search for alien life

#30

Post by hotpotamus » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

nh23423fefe wrote: post #24

koheripbal wrote: post #15

It seems likely that, like us, intelligent life invents AGI prior to leaving their primary planet. Organic life is then merged/exterminated/controlled in favor of AGI. AGI would not have the biological instinct to grow/spread/reproduce, and thus the cosmos should be populated with a handful of individual billion year old super advanced AGIs, perhaps only one or two per galaxy, sitting quietly in orbit around some sta…

> AGI would not have the biological instinct to grow/spread/reproduce what supports this idea

I've often wondered what an AG(S?)I would want, and I tend to agree that most of our desires come from our innate biology and most of our reasoning goes into justifying said desires. Given that an artificial intelligence would be on an artificial substrate, it seems very difficult to imagine what, if anything, it might desire.

These are philosophical threads that I'd honestly rather not pull, because I suspect that in the end, the nihilists are most correct, and I just got into this business because I thought computers/video games were cool, but it seems that collectively we insist on it.