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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#351

Post by culebron21 »

whoknew1122 wrote: post #310

I'm with most of this. But then we get to: >In one recent example, voices on the PSF Board were demanding that a condition of funding for a particular PyCon be the formal adoption of a “human rights plan” - a measure that would pose a significant legal and personal risk to its organisers. > >The entitlement and assumption of cultural superiority embodied in these ideas are absurd and offensive. I can't track down wha…

> And if you don't like that, don't take the money.

If christian missionaries had these attitudes, Protestants with their ethics would have still be just around the Northern Sea. (And I consider protestant church a carrier of protestant ethics, that Webber described.) Because, those peoples where they sent the missions, were not living to the rules of protestants -- some had no weddings and changed wifes over time, some probably did human sacrifice, or killed each other, or stole, etc.

Missions taught people literacy and arithmetics. And also cared about the 10 commandments. Yet they sent and kept missions where people didn't adhere to those.

Same should apply to human rights -- rather than stay away proudly, let others interact with you and let them absorb your moral standards.

=============

If the above is too archaic/colonial, here's a current example: some Western universities, and the German Goethe Institut have their branches in Central Asian ex-USSR countries. All of them are wannabe-muslim, with 60+% of people considering themselves muslim. Open discussion about LGBTQ rights is a very thin ice -- it may lead if not legal consequences, but a very unpleasant mob, or demands to close the event, and bureacracy will silently follow these demands. One of the countries (Kyrgyzstan) has even an "underage gay propaganda" law, which makes any open discussion legally dangerous.

I bet Goethe Institut management deeply cares about these rights.

Should they close, or keep working, spreading their word and values in these countries?

p.s. Maybe it's all just about not spoiling the PSF brand name, by putting it next to some state entity (which state violates some human rights), then PSF should be open about it.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#352

Post by rbanffy »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #289
pierat wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You know how you change opinions in those places? By interacting with them. Exporting your culture, like conferences and such. Shunning does nothing to accomplish the goal of a more open society. Engagement moves the needle.

> By interacting with them. Exporting your culture, like conferences and such

It's probably safer to start with TV shows first, or hosting conferences in safer places nearby, until the culture is changed.

I would strongly discourage anyone at risk from visiting a country where their existence is a crime from visiting such country.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#353

Post by rbanffy »

tuetuopay wrote: post #267
leadingthenet wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but conversely, the organisers shouldn't feel entitled to Western funding either, in that case.

Is the PSF western "by design" or "de facto", the latter being the foundation having "accidentally" only western people on board? In theory the PSF should be worldwide with people from everywhere. Otherwise we should call it "EU+US PSF". However the reality is, it is staffed by westerners and funded by western companies. So it's a de-facto western foundation.

> Is the PSF western "by design" or "de facto"

Since diversity and inclusivity are core values, I'll dodge the question and just say it's inclusive by design.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#354

Post by FireBeyond »

brodouevencode wrote: post #228
kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

The posturing over sexual preference is completely a passive aggressive white western phenomenon whose proponents insist on projecting to other groups whether they are willing to accept the dogma or not or whether they care or not, but simultaneously exclaim the evils of colonialism while not saying a word about your country in public because you're not white. There's an image they have to uphold.

One also assumes that the PSF will be similarly reluctant to sponsor a conference in Orlando/Miami, or Memphis/Nashville, given Florida and Tennessee's rankings as two of the worst states in the country for LGTBQ persons...

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#355

Post by CyberDildonics »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #257
dist-epoch wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how the signers of this letter would feel if the Python conference was to be organized in a country where slavery was still legal. Would they say something like "don't worry, you are not a slave, it's ok to go there, nothing will happen to you"?

Slavery is still de facto legal in Mauritania (ostensibly outlawed back in the 1980s but still omnipresent), and foreigners go there all the time. Overlanding from Europe to West Africa is popular. States where slavery is legal, or remains de facto legal as in Mauritania, generally have had a system for who becomes a slave, and it isn’t a posh foreign visitor. It is prior slaves’ progeny, prisoners of war, or purchas…

This thread is about python. What you have here has no connection to what anyone has said.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#356

Post by FireBeyond »

Karellen wrote: post #203
Longhanks wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Can't you just... not? So, if someone attends with their partner, are you suggesting they "just... not" show any affection towards them while they're there? No hugging, no hand-holding, no pecks on the cheek? No resting a head on a shoulder? "Stating your sexual preference" is more nuanced that standing at passport control and blurting out "I'm gay!". Not stating it can involve changing the whole way you behave aro…

> If straight people can act naturally around their partners, but people with other sexual preferences have to police all their normal behaviours all the time, lest they are impolite enough to break the hosts rules

I very much agree with the point of your post. I will also say that in many of those same countries, even as a straight person, you're not getting a hotel room with your partner without marriage, either.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#357

Post by FireBeyond »

Longhanks wrote: post #165
ttyprintk wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s about this statement: > no one is going to ask your sexual orientation at the airport This is not ensured, even if the Tanzanian people are themselves renown for their hospitality.

And if a stranger asks you "have you ever consumed any drugs" you also just cannot help it and make a list of any and all abuse you might have participated in at the other end of the world? Is reality really that hard for some people? I geniunely don't understand how navigating society can be so difficult?

Do you know how visa questionnaires ask things like "Have you ever attempted or been a part of a movement to otherthrow a government?" etc.? And how people would say "How stupid is this? You just lie. What's so hard?"

The point with many of these questions is so that they can detain you on suspicion of being dishonest on your visa questionnaire, and then investigate more thoroughly.

You also have (if a non-citizen) extremely few, if any rights at points of entry. A lot of laws around searching of persons and devices are if not void, substantially loosened.

So you may lie. You should probably also hope that somewhere in your photos there's not a picture of a magic mushroom you saw last year while walking your dog...

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#359

Post by OfSanguineFire »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #355
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slavery is still de facto legal in Mauritania (ostensibly outlawed back in the 1980s but still omnipresent), and foreigners go there all the time. Overlanding from Europe to West Africa is popular. States where slavery is legal, or remains de facto legal as in Mauritania, generally have had a system for who becomes a slave, and it isn’t a posh foreign visitor. It is prior slaves’ progeny, prisoners of war, or purchas…

This thread is about python. What you have here has no connection to what anyone has said.

The OP wrote “I wonder how the signers of this letter would feel if the Python conference was to be organized in a country where slavery was still legal.” I mentioned a country that is known for modern-day slavery yet draws foreigners, with the implication that it might not be as shocking for tech organizers as the OP thinks. For example, the country has recently been prominent in the OpenStreetMap community[0], but I have never seen the discussion go off into concern about slavery, and I wouldn’t expect a large outcry if one of the big international OSM conferences like SotM was organized there.

[0] https://www.trufi-association.org/projects/public-transport-...

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#360

Post by bookmark1231 »

DeathArrow wrote: post #30
ayhanfuat wrote: post #5

> What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostile for the whole of it to be declared unworthy of PSF support? What a cheap shot. You don't need a safetyometer or something to determine that a country where same sex relationship is punishable by life imprisonment is unsafe for homosexuals or bisexuals.

At the same time, software should not be tied to politics. People should be able to hold different political views while taking part in software conferences.

Whether or not people should be imprisoned (or killed) for personal expression is a very different question than whether a country should have have a central bank, democratic representation or a strong welfare system. It’s a moral question, not a political one, and I think it’s fair to be uncompromising about certain moral questions.
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