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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#141

Post by lozenge »

_cenw wrote: post #137
zartusht wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Reductive to pretend this boils down to "don't do events where bad politics" when we're talking about participant safety. The entirety of the US would get a lifetime ban if we did that.

The point is there is no standard that is applied evenly. If there was then the funding would have been quickly denied with a documented reason attached. Stalling something which is going to get approved is just vindictiveness and collective punishment.

Have you not heard what it's like for an Arab or Muslim going through Israeli airports? Sure, they'll be detained and deported at most, but that's enough to exclude the idea of visiting to give a conference talk.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#142

Post by _cenw »

kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

> This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power.

If your policies put people at risk, limit to participation is a natural consequence. There is no conspiracy here.

>I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those who do don't give a damn. Those leading the making of laws and noise making are just populists after their bread. [These are facts, hoping they still matter]

>If you feel so strong about attending the conference, no one is going to ask your sexual orientation at the airport. Tourists are coming in everyday. Qatar has just hosted the world cup, how many LGBTQ people were jailed? If you don't feel safe, just skip the conference or attend online.

Bullshit.

You are asking people to be invisible, when that's not practical or possible a lot of the time. You are just saying people wouldn't be offended if they don't have the information to be offended. That is not remotely the same as safety.

Case in point: I'm visibly trans, I don't have a toggle for my appearance. I'd be turned around the border in most gulf states.

Also, Quatar used the World Cup to crack down on their domestic gay population by (yes this is real) catfishing them, posing as foreigners looking to hook up. So to answer your question: A whole lot of them got jailed.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#143

Post by ttyprintk »

odiroot wrote: post #42
hd4 wrote: post #20

> We know that there are some extraordinary attitudes at work within the PSF. A PSF Board member once openly expressed the opinion that Anglo cultures always seem to be the ones that take the moral lead around the world, leaving others to follow their example. From any non-western perspective, this is an astounding idea to receive. > That’s not a solitary episode. We understand that (notwithstanding the PSF’s ambitio…

PSF would gain a lot from getting acquainted with Kipling's The White Man's Burden.

It’d be a mixed message, since the Philippines is high value for international conferences and outreach.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#144

Post by HelloNurse »

blackbear_ wrote: post #51
mmtml wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was not properly made on their behalf. That said, do the organizers of the conference have any saying on the politics on their country and actually deserve to be punished because of them? I don't really think so.

I am not sure if denying funding can be thought of as a punishment: could they have chosen another country? But going along with it, allowing the conference to happen should then be considered a punishment against the people who are by law prevented from attending. And now it's not so simple anymore since no matter what the PSF does they have to "punish" somebody.

[flagged]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#145

Post by kabanda1 »

Ralfp wrote: post #136
kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

> If you don't feel safe, just skip the conference or attend online. Well, PSF is not feeling safe about the conference and are skipping it.

Very well. Just give people a reason and they move on. We wouldn't be here today

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#146

Post by _cenw »

lozenge wrote: post #141
_cenw wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reductive to pretend this boils down to "don't do events where bad politics" when we're talking about participant safety. The entirety of the US would get a lifetime ban if we did that.

The point is there is no standard that is applied evenly. If there was then the funding would have been quickly denied with a documented reason attached. Stalling something which is going to get approved is just vindictiveness and collective punishment. Have you not heard what it's like for an Arab or Muslim going through Israeli airports? Sure, they'll be detained and deported at most, but that's enough to exclude t…

They're still not the same thing. TSA and Israeli customs might suck, but at worst you get turned around.

You manage to get past, let's say, Saudi customs as a trans person, get ready for jail time for the crime of existing. Not comparable.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#147

Post by melagonster »

kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

>You know very well that coders are among the most reserved people on earth.

Do not free/open source software activity or geek culture feel like more close to leftwing?

p.s., this comment doesn't try to refute you.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#148

Post by biorach »

rob74 wrote: post #79
keraf wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claims of Zanzibar being unsafe for LGBTQIA+ communities is ridiculous. I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. I've even been to same-sex weddings here (between foreigners of course, same-sex relationships are still taboo between locals but they do exist) and have gay friends livin…

> There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. that's exactly what differentiates developed from developing countries: the rule of law. Not saying that it's perfect in developed countries (far from it), but at least you don't have to fear being arrested and face life imprisonment for something that's "generally tolerated", but in your special case wasn't…

The distinction between developed and developing countries you think is so clearcut is actually not so clear

"the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of sodomy laws in Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986. However, in 2003, the Supreme Court changed opinion and reversed the decision with Lawrence v. Texas, invalidating sodomy laws in the remaining 14 states: Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas, Utah and Virginia."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_St...

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#149

Post by ttyprintk »

jsmeaton wrote: post #57
bruce343434 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And be honest about the fact that Africans Need Not Apply I have the hunch that that is what it came down to, a matter of public perception. Shunt africa, or shunt lgbt? Both "important minority identities" in the current zeitgeist of the western world. Probably no one wanted to touch that decision with a 10 ft pole.

The open letter states it was a single individual that was able to stonewall the process. It wasn’t about the PSF group as a whole that didn’t want to touch the decision. One person. I think the letter has a fairly good point that processes are broken if this is possible.

I have to guess that, based on the meeting minutes posted nearby, the one vote needed to reach 5/10 vote is what this is referring to. The minutes explain a high number of abstentions. The chair of the PSF board was one of the Zanzibar organizers, for example.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#150

Post by viraptor »

DeathArrow wrote: post #114
Xeamek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>software should not be tied to politics. Why not? I mean, software is a product like any other. I for example wouldn't like if a group like ISIS was using my software, especially if they were using it to actively help them in commiting their crimes. If I could prevent that from happening, why shouldn't I?

>Why not You have the right to hold you own political views, however you don't have the right to impose those on users of a particular software or participants in a software conference.

You sure do have the rights to do that. A more general you does anyway. You can't export software to certain countries, basically due to their political position. Multiple sanctions exist today.

See also the licence giving the right to IBM to use the software for evil. https://gist.github.com/kemitchell/fdc179d60dc88f0c9b76e5d38...

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