Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 76 posts

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#51

Post by 2sk21 »

Yhippa wrote: post #34
pmorici wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get a Tesla it is solved now. The charging is seamless and reliable pretty much everywhere except the very most out of the way places. All the rest though that can't yet use Tesla's charging network I would agree total trash if you want to do a long trip and need charging. This should change in ~2 years when manufactures start making more EVs that are compatible with NACS (aka Tesla's super charger network)

This is going to sound like a real dumb reason to avoid a Tesla but it disappoints me that they don't have Android Auto or Apple CarPlay. I tried them in rental cars over the past year and now that's a must-have in my next car.

Agree - I will not buy a car without CarPlay no matter what other benefits it may offer.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#52

Post by olyjohn »

Abroszka wrote: post #20
ClarityJones wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Model 3's battery is 82kWh, a Camry Hybrid's battery is 1.6kWH. In terms of battery, you could produce (82 / 1.6 = 51.25) hybrids per fully electric car. The total fuel savings of replacing 10+ ICE cars with hybrids is an order of magnitude larger than replacing 1 ICE car with a fully electric car.

For each of those 51 hybrids you need to manufacture an extra ICE engine. Which is not cheap. It's more complex to make a drive train that can seamlessly handle switching from EV to ICE. So it's more difficult to manufacture. Has there been a study that takes the whole lifecycle of a hybrid into account vs an EV or ICE? Would be super interested if there had been a research that also takes into account that we don't…

ICE engines may be more complex, but batteries are still more expensive than a small ICE engine. Have you seen the cost of a replacement battery for a Tesla? $12-20k all day long. You don't need a massive, high performance ICE engine to charge up batteries on the go, or to get your car down the highway. Meanwhile I can get a high performance crate engine for less than half that cost ($5-6k all day). Less than half that for a basic, economical 4 banger.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#53

Post by baggy_trough »

Yhippa wrote: post #34
pmorici wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get a Tesla it is solved now. The charging is seamless and reliable pretty much everywhere except the very most out of the way places. All the rest though that can't yet use Tesla's charging network I would agree total trash if you want to do a long trip and need charging. This should change in ~2 years when manufactures start making more EVs that are compatible with NACS (aka Tesla's super charger network)

This is going to sound like a real dumb reason to avoid a Tesla but it disappoints me that they don't have Android Auto or Apple CarPlay. I tried them in rental cars over the past year and now that's a must-have in my next car.

I have the same feeling.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#54

Post by saaaaaam »

Swizec wrote: post #13
jabroni_salad wrote: post #5

Isn't the upsizing of vehicles because of consumer demand, though? They can sell crossovers and trucks into the consumer base at such volume and margin that it is worthwhile to simply stop making sedans. There are people like me who just want an electric honda fit but it seems like there aren't enough of us to be worth the effort.

> an electric honda fit IoniQ 5 comes close. It's the first EV that made me go "omg I want that!". One of these days I'll take one for a test drive. Looks so cool, isn't super huge even though it's still big, and doesn't even try to look like a SUV. Although maybe I've been in USA too long and my perception is skewed because Wikipedia calls it a "compact crossover suv". Maybe battery size is a limiting factor here? T…

This is definitely a US mindset. In Europe I look at the Ioniq 5 and think “that’s a huge car”.

I love the Citroen Ami and the Microlino. I very nearly bought an Ami earlier this year (I test drove it. It’s insane and absolutely should not work - but somehow it does!) but decided I’ll hold off for the Microlino

Citroen Ami: https://electricscooters.eu/citroen-ami/

Microlino: https://microlino-car.com/en/

Fiat is releasing a similar one soon, the Topolino: https://www.fiat.com/fiat-topolino/topolino

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#55

Post by tzs »

pmorici wrote: post #25
Yhippa wrote: post #14

I was very close to buying an EV this summer but ended up not getting it. It felt like I could get an equivalent ICE car for about $20K cheaper. I did a lot of research about EV charging and the more I read the more I felt I didn't understand how it would practically work. I make a long trip every month or so and it sounds like the EV charging network isn't quite to where the point where it's as easy, quick, and cost…

If you get a Tesla it is solved now. The charging is seamless and reliable pretty much everywhere except the very most out of the way places. All the rest though that can't yet use Tesla's charging network I would agree total trash if you want to do a long trip and need charging. This should change in ~2 years when manufactures start making more EVs that are compatible with NACS (aka Tesla's super charger network)

> If you get a Tesla it is solved now. The charging is seamless and reliable pretty much everywhere except the very most out of the way places

There are still places that aren't out of the way but lack Tesla network chargers.

I'm on the other side of Puget Sound from Seattle, and Tesla's charger map shows nothing over here [1]. The nearest Tesla network chargers are in Seattle. Getting there and back is almost $30 in ferry fares, plus 1 to 2 hours on the ferry (depending on which ferry route you take). There is also one in Tacoma, which is about 90 minutes round trip plus a Tacoma Narrows bridge toll.

[1] https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=47.94252518054602%2C...

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#56

Post by bombcar »

floxy wrote: post #50
bombcar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't in the market for an F-150, but a minivan, and the EV minivan doesn't exist, the PHEV minivan is way higher priced than the regular one, and the hybrid minivan is nearly impossible to find. So I have a boring standard one now.

VW is apparently coming out with one next year... https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/id-buzz-microbus

My suggestion that we move to an 18-24 month gestation were rejected and so a vehicle available today was needed.

Hopefully it does well, but it would be nice to see EV minivans competitive with the low-end instead of being luxury items.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#57

Post by Abroszka »

olyjohn wrote: post #45
Abroszka wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure. In the comment I replied to, they mentioned that EV is good 95% of the time. In that case, renting a car, like once a month, for a long range tip would make sense imo. Better yet, public transport, then rent an EV there.

Or just get a PHEV. And then you only need 1/3 of the batteries in your car, and you don't have to deal with rentals. Does it really make sense to have 300 miles worth of batteries that you haul around in your car when 90% of your trips are less than 100 miles?

No, but it makes less sense to haul around an ICE or more battery than needed for 100 miles.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#58

Post by uoaei »

Abroszka wrote: post #12
voisin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric for 95% of driving, gas to eliminate range anxiety for the few longer trips per year. Use the gas for charging the batteries - no connection between gas engine and electric drivetrain.

But then just rent an ICE car when you go for a long drive... better for the environment.

Have you dealt with a rental agency in a population hub any time in the past 15 years? It's awful service and such a pain to do all the research anew on pricing every time you want to do a drive.

Much easier to manage your own predictable resources than try to shove your use-case into another organization's framework.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#59

Post by tzs »

Abroszka wrote: post #4
newsclues wrote: post #2

Hybrids will spur adoption faster and cheaper than anything

Hybrids doesn't make sense to me. If you need a car that runs on gas then make it a proper ICE car. Why put two engines into one? Seems super wasteful.

The best you can get with current pure ICEs is about 35/43/39 mpg city/highway/combined.

A non-plug-in Toyota Prius gets 57/56/57. A Hyundai Elantra hybrid gets 53/56/54.

Re: Automakers must build cheaper, smaller EVs to spur adoption, report says

#60

Post by max51 »

voisin wrote: post #8
Abroszka wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hybrids doesn't make sense to me. If you need a car that runs on gas then make it a proper ICE car. Why put two engines into one? Seems super wasteful.

Electric for 95% of driving, gas to eliminate range anxiety for the few longer trips per year. Use the gas for charging the batteries - no connection between gas engine and electric drivetrain.

> Use the gas for charging the batteries - no connection between gas engine and electric drivetrain.

Almost all of them have a connection from the gas engine to the wheels. I don't know if it is still the case today, but no that long ago many hybrid models even reused the same automatic transmission from the ICE version of the car. Hybrids are not designed as an electric car with a generator, the drivetrain is truly "hybrid" and send direct mechanical power form the ICE to the wheels

Post reply on HN