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The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

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Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#271

Post by peppermint_gum »

locallost wrote: post #238
quietbritishjim wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Here are the reasons the Russians did it. It's different, because they're evil" No. The OP was talking about generally thinking that the Russians are evil and the US is great. Whereas the comment you're replying to gave specific malicious things that happened in the Russian case and didn't in the US case. The difference between the way people acted in the two cases is clear and doesn't require any particular polit…

actually I agree with itsoktocry. You assume all those things to be facts, but nobody discussing here was personally present in any of those events. I can assure you that the version of "Russians knew it was a civilian airplane" is not recognized as true in Russia. This even without being able to speak Russian, nor ever being in Russia. But of course, they are bad people :-).

Indeed, if you ignore all the evidence, including the declassified Russian documents[1], you can conclude that Russia did nothing wrong with regard to the KE007 flight.

To be honest, the persistent blind contrarianism of this community is really tiring.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007#So...

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#272

Post by mannykannot »

smcl wrote: post #239

> they saw this contact heading towards them labeled as an F-14 fighter. What's wild to me is the assumption that Iran would suddenly launch a single F-14 fighter to attack a ship. Was there no moment where they thought "maybe there has been a mistake?" - like where Stanislav Petrov chose to interpret the Soviet early warning system telling him an ICBM was incoming as being a result of some faulty instruments. Grante…

Maybe (probably?) it did seem crazy, but the officers sought verification from the system and seemed to get it.

They were probably unaware that there was an airliner in their vicinity, as it had been incorrectly tagged as an F-14. I don't know where the actual F-14 was, but quite possibly nowhere in the vicinity of the ship.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#273

Post by dataworm »

klibertp wrote: post #220
brabel wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where did you learn that? My wife is Ukrainian and knows lot of Russians and Belarussians (they're neighbours after all, and no they don't all hate each other!!), they watch each other TV shows and like mostly the same singers (they understand each other pretty well)... a lot of the biggest Ukrainian singers go to live and work in Russia (though obviously they're now being criticized heavily in Ukraine when they…

Don't bother. Seriously. You won't convince anyone irrational enough to generalize hundreds of thousands of people into "russian soldiers are evil nazis, not normal people" with rational arguments. The only way to convince such people (that peace is better than killing) is to subject them to long-term, consistent propaganda, but... The only forces capable of doing that are interested in pretty much exactly the opposi…

There really isn't more to the story. russia has been oppressing and killing Ukrainians since the creation of the russian empire. They have only stopped for a brief period after the fall of the USSR. You are claiming there are no nazis. So Nazi Germany was fiction? russians are nazis, just look on the internet. Monsters do exist - war criminals, mass murderers, brutal dictators. Not all people are regular humans and some need to be punished for their evil actions. Where did you get this unicorns pooping rainbows bullshit? russians, not Ukrainians started this war and happily support the killing of the other side. They are the reason this keeps happening.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#274

Post by matheusmoreira »

thereddaikon wrote: post #195
matheusmoreira wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not stupid. All governments and militaries use propaganda. You'd be a fool to believe anything they say, no matter which country it is. The absolute truth of what happened is unreachable to us, we can only try to piece together a coherent version of the events after the fact. Government narratives are notoriously unreliable sources to base such an understanding upon.

Propaganda doesn't mean its necessarily a lie or misleading. Its just government marketing. It can be truthful or deceitful. Back to the core issue of accidental shootdowns. I think its important to note that while these tragedies have continued to happen after the US incident in the 80's, none of them involved the US military since. That does lead credibility to their claim it was a UI and procedural problem that wa…

> Propaganda doesn't mean its necessarily a lie or misleading.

> Its just government marketing.

All marketing is inherently a lie or misleading due to inescapable conflicts of interest. They have every reason in the world to want you to believe certain stuff. Therefore you should be skeptical and disbelieve them by default.

> That does lead credibility to their claim it was a UI and procedural problem that was fixed.

I don't doubt it was. The author of the mastodon posts this thread is about made very convincing arguments as far as I'm concerned.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#275

Post by ceejayoz »

Tangurena2 wrote: post #265
thereddaikon wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also don't have a large an obvious "Korean Air" livery on them. Military aircraft are marked appropriately. I wouldn't necessarily expect a soviet fighter pilot to read english but I would expect him to recognize what a civil airliner looks like. The USSR had their own and also wore colorful liveries.

It was shot down at night. There's no way to view the livery on a dark plane at just before 2 AM.

Yes there is; we call them "lights".

The logo on the tail was lit up.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KAL007747-2.png

The pilot of the fighter also reported seeing "two rows of windows", which can only be a 747 at the time. https://www.cnn.com/2013/08/31/us/kal-fight-007-anniversary/...

> “I could see two rows of windows, which were lit up,” Soviet pilot Col. Gennadi Osipovitch told CNN in 1998, describing the 747’s telltale double-deck configuration. “I wondered if it was a civilian aircraft. Military cargo planes don’t have such windows.”

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#276

Post by dataworm »

klibertp wrote: post #254
tpm wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you believe they bombed the theater because they were actively trying to kill Ukrainian children? Yes. They are also actively bombing clinics (including the maternity ward in Mariupol too, look it up) and they have done that in Syria too. It's pretty well documented. They are evil, but more than that, it's a strategy. They are currently also bombing civilian areas, fully aware that they are civilian areas. There…

> They are currently also bombing civilian areas, fully aware that they are civilian areas. They might be "fully aware" that those areas are used by the "enemy" to stockpile materiel and gather personnel. That would make those areas legitimate targets. Can you prove a) there were no military targets there, or b) the attackers were "aware" there were no military targets there? I can't - nobody can. That's why when you…

Just look at the facts. russians aren't bombing civillian areas because they are legitimate targets, but because they want to and are encouraged to kill as many civillians as possible. How do you explain Bucha? Were the civillians who were shot also 'legitimate targets'? It's not 'choosing sides' and 'framing events', russia started this war and russia is the bad guy in this war. Why does anyone have to prove anything to you? It won't convince you to stop supporting russia anyway.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#277

Post by oldgradstudent »

bdavbdav wrote: post #264
ImaCake wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just Tesla. Recent Jeep models have a digital speedometer with no analog backup. From an engineering perspective these changes just introduce needless risk of complex failure for no real gain. Surely the speedometer is not the make or break cost item on a car?

The analog speedometer it replaced has been digital behind the scenes for ages. The cluster is just sat on a CAN (or similar) bus and controlling a servo for the analog gauge. The pure digital speedometer is significantly less failure prone (and indeed when it does fail, it’s obvious).

A German professor of mine worked at BMW before grad school. He worked on the firmware of the tachometer.

The behavior of the tachometer needle was dictated by the marketing department.

A BMW engine accelerates smoothly and confidently. The tachometer needle never shakes, it rises smoothly and confidently.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#278

Post by architect01 »

The whole thing would have been avoided if the US didn't push their Navy around Iran why the hell is there a US navy ship there to begin with and why the hell is it that easy for them to shout at whatever is moving in the sky yes it might have been a UI issue but the root of the problem is "a US navy ship next to iran's border"

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#279

Post by krisoft »

smcl wrote: post #224
astrobase_go wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your company is PSE, correct?

I think if they wanted to name the company they would have done so in the comment

There have been only 5 "former Captain of the USS Zumwalt". That is a very small subset of humans. There have been more humans walking on the moon than former Captains of the USS Zumwalt.

Their names are a matter of public record and one can answer which works as a CEO with 5 simple google searches.

If they didn't want to name the company they shouldn't have identified it willingly and precisely.

Re: The 1988 shooting down of Flight 655 as a user interface disaster

#280

Post by Angostura »

nottorp wrote: post #267

Is this a mastodon instance? Mastodon is a twitter clone that doesn't allow long posts? All the posts but the first come collapsed and I have to click on each to read it. Is someone measuring engagement?

Yes it’s Mastodon, designed for short posts. I doubt anyone is measuring engagement
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