Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#341

Post by Hikikomori » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 12:23 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #328

Hikikomori wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla doesn't make anything in Sweden. Their workforce is mostly mechanics working at car service centers. What the unions can do is make it very hard for Tesla to operate in Sweden. They cannot hire other companies to perform something for them, no electricians to repair charging stations, no cleaning services, cannot source any parts for cars there, etc. They can of course hire people directly to do these things an…

> Their workforce is mostly mechanics working at car service centers. So why don't they stop having those and let independent shops do it? Repairs used to be a major profit center for traditional dealerships but electric cars are supposed to cut that way back, right? > They cannot hire other companies to perform something for them, no electricians to repair charging stations, no cleaning services, cannot source any p…

Tesla could do that. Nothing stops them from hiring someone else to provide this service, someone that has a collective agreement in place. This is the most likely outcome here as the other options are withdrawing from Sweden or signing the agreement.

American companies also has a pretty strong resemblance to organized crime.

What do you believe is so unreasonable in the collective agreement? Supposedly Tesla already exceeds the minimum bar it sets.

More than 90% of workers in Sweden have a collective agreement. This isn't the first time that an American company ran into the Swedish system, they've set the precedent multiple times already, this isn't going to be any different.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#342

Post by Hikikomori » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 12:29 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #329

Hikikomori wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing. Just like nothing stops the ones that do want a collection agreement as they work for Tesla and have join the union. There's no requirement for a majority wanting it or not.

It's not a question of any majority. If you don't want to work for Elon then... just don't. There are many other employers. He can't force you to work for $2/hour regardless of whether or not there is any collective bargaining agreement when you could get more than that across the street.

They are employees, members of a union, so the union has the right to demand a collective agreement. Tesla has the right to not sign it, but we have the right to strike enshrined in our constitution and sympathy strikes are legal.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#343

Post by pandaman » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 1:26 PM UTC

fastasucan wrote: post #339

pandaman wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5th largest country by what measure? It's definitely not even in the top 50 by population nor by the territory.

5th largest country by revenue. By the "population" or "territory" logic, Russia, India and China should be the most important markets for Tesla (they are not).

China is not? Tesla's revenue from the US is double that from China and from China is more than from the rest of the world yet Sweden is so important?

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#344

Post by M95D » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

codersfocus wrote: post #314

InCityDreams wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is not hard to imagine scenarios where this is weaponized with horrifying outcomes." Well, it is for me to imagine - could you expand on "horrifying"? The Mirriam W definitions don't seem to make sense when used in your particular context.

“I’m a fireman. I don’t like you, so I’ll stand here while the fire burns you and your house.”

WE are firemen. Plural. It's not the decision of a single employee.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#345

Post by M95D » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 2:32 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #88

danpalmer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems very likely the strike action will win out, otherwise there's no effective route to strike action from postal workers. Whether they aren't allowed to strike or Postnord is allowed to bring in non-union workers, both would neutralise any strike effectiveness, and given Sweden's strong labour laws it seems unlikely that would be the case. Another way of looking at it is that Postnord is not refusing as a policy t…

> and given Sweden's strong labour laws it seems unlikely that would be the case Sweden doesn't have strong labour laws, Sweden just doesn't regulate union power that much. Unions are extremely powerful entities with no regulations so you have to limit it a bit, just like you have to limit the power of private corporations. If a private corporation could block your access to essential government services then that wo…

> Unions are extremely powerful entities with no regulations so you have to limit it a bit

Why?

> just like you have to limit the power of private corporations.

Not the same thing. Unions act in the interest of their members and even other workers non-members. Corporations act in the interest of their shareholders, against workers (lower salary => profit) and ordinary citizens (polution, monopoly, prices, lower quality => all profit).

Or maybe you are not interested in all that?

> If a private corporation could block your access to essential government services then that would be a big problem

Like how my internet service provider could (if they wanted to) block my access to government sites? Yes. True. Big problem. But they can. Right now, they can.

> the same applies to unions

But they only block it for a company, a specific company. Why should companies be treated like natural persons?

> The government is supposed to be impartial in this case

Wrong. So wrong I'm shocked anyone could say this. Are you paid to troll?

Did you ever hear of a concept called "DEMOCRACY"?

Goverments should act in the interest of their citizens (who voted!), not be impartial to citizens vs. corporations. More than that they should be impartial and act for the good of ALL their citizens, not doing favors to Tesla customers who didn't receive their toy before Christmas.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#346

Post by aaomidi » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 3:36 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #288

aaomidi wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually democracy in action. Worker unions are a lot better at making the voices of workers heard and actuated on.

Worker unions are a lot better at making the voices of workers heard and actuated on. Then why in this case are they violating consensuality and trying to impose the collective agreement on the Tesla worker pool from outside?

Because workers having each others backs is actually a good thing?

It effectively creates a powerful voice of literally everyday people who are working.

Solidarity strikes is the real power of worker unions.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#347

Post by jltsiren » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 4:29 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #297

jltsiren wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PostNord is a private business owned by Sweden and Denmark. Unless there are specific laws to the contrary, its employees have the same right to strike as any other private sector employees. (More generally, postal services in the EU tend to be structured as businesses these days, because they are in direct competition with various courier and package delivery services.) Also, while the employees may be on strike, ma…

> PostNord is a private business owned by Sweden and Denmark. That would be a public business?

PostNord a publicly owned company, but it's an ordinary company by its legal status. The latter is what matters for the legal rights of its employees. Because PostNord is in direct competition with privately owned businesses, it should operate under the same rules as its competitors. It could be seen as an unfair an possibly illegal advantage if its employees were not allowed to strike.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#348

Post by Spivak » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #329

Hikikomori wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing. Just like nothing stops the ones that do want a collection agreement as they work for Tesla and have join the union. There's no requirement for a majority wanting it or not.

It's not a question of any majority. If you don't want to work for Elon then... just don't. There are many other employers. He can't force you to work for $2/hour regardless of whether or not there is any collective bargaining agreement when you could get more than that across the street.

I'm curious about your views.

* Is there any place for government to have labor laws at all? Because that argument applies to everything from pay, nondiscrimination, and safety.

* Do you not see unions as a market force? Government generally does more to hinder unions than support them and the laws on the books in most countries are there so naive owners who didn't read their history don't do go and get themselves dragged out of their office by an angry mob.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#349

Post by mytailorisrich » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 5:43 PM UTC

user_named wrote: post #298

mytailorisrich wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refusing to distribute mail to a specific recipient does not sound like a 'strike' in the sense of labour dispute to me. In France (often used a reference when it comes to striking...) that wouldn't be a legal strike, but obviously every jurisdiction is different. In any case, this also probably breaches EU law related to universal postal service, which states that mail must be delivered to every address 5 days a wee…

There is no such EU law. Post is not delivered 5 days a week in Sweden.

"EU countries are obliged to guarantee a permanent, affordable, universal postal service everywhere within their territory, i.e. they have to guarantee as a minimum the following:
- a service (collection from access points and delivery) on 5 working days a week (with exceptions);
- the collection, sorting, transport and delivery of postal items weighing up to 10 kg;

- services for registered and insured items." [1]

That being said, obviously the specific number of days is not important here.

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/postal-se...

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#350

Post by martin8412 » Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 7:22 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #324

bjornsing wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there are obviously also other laws in Sweden. For (an obvious) example, the police union can’t decline to investigate crimes against Tesla owners.

Are you sure? Can you point to a concrete law stating this?

The Scandinavian countries are generally quite similar in these matters. In Denmark, uniformed police can't strike. It's part of the way they're employed, in return, they're almost impossible to fire except for cases of gross violation of their duty. I'm almost certain Sweden is the same, but I'd love for a Swede to chime in. It's called Tjenestemænd in Danish.