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Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

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Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#281

Post by mxsjoberg »

skitout wrote: post #233
david38 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure you know what democracy is. Tesla is required by law to use the post to get plates. This invalidates the whole premise.

Not sure you know what democracy is... Democracy is not just voting for your MP, it includes unions, strikes and collective agreement If Tesla agreed (like 99,9999% of companies) with the democratically designed collective agreement, there would be no targeted strike. Strikes are one of the main democratic bargaining tool employees and unions have... including on key point of businesses.

> democratically designed collective agreement there is no such thing

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#282

Post by hayleox »

letmevoteplease wrote: post #202
aaomidi wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually democracy in action. Worker unions are a lot better at making the voices of workers heard and actuated on.

If a company is legally required to use PostNord and PostNord can legally refuse to deliver mail, it effectively gives PostNord the power to control any company that wants to continue receiving mail. Regardless of whether they are using that power for good or evil here, I don't think it's a power they should have.

PostNord isn't refusing to do anything. Its employees are refusing to cross a picket line, and PostNord is unable to compel them to do so.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#283

Post by mxsjoberg »

matsemann wrote: post #138
kmlx wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This vacuum we are now in is probably very costly for Tesla i would assume the nordic markets are tiny compared to the RoW. does anyone here have any data on revenue from those markets for tesla?

Norway and Sweden are both top 5 countries in sold Teslas.

less than 10% of US sales

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#284

Post by mxsjoberg »

bjornasm wrote: post #215
lynx23 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were Musk, I'd just shut down the whole operation in Sweden. It is not like the country is particularily big.

Only the 5th largest country, ans by doing so they might shut down their 4th largest country, Norway, as well.

less than 10% of US sales

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#285

Post by abhibeckert »

einr wrote: post #229
mytailorisrich wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What force majeure? Do you know what the term means?

To answer in kind: yes, do you? https://da.se/2023/11/totalstopp-for-nya-telsabilar-far-elon... https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure "Med force majeure avses vanligen krig, upplopp, brand, naturkatastrofer (som översvämning, orkan, jordbävning), explosioner, strejk, nya lagar som förbjuder fullföljandet av avtalet, och liknande." I'll assume you read Swedish since you seem to be an expert at the issue. If not,…

For the benefit of everyone else reading this discussion who doesn't speak Swedish... here's what I got from a good (paid) translation service:

"Force majeure typically refers to war, riots, fire, natural disasters (such as floods, hurricanes, earthquakes), explosions, strikes, new laws prohibiting the fulfillment of the contract, and similar events."

The thing is though, Tesla isn't suing because their license plates aren't being delivered. They are suing because it was* literally impossible for them to access an essential government service.

(* was, because Tesla has won a preliminary decision forcing the state to allow Tesla to arange an alternative delivery method - probably Tesla sending someone around to the factory to pick up the plates)

In my opinion Force Majeure would only be a valid defence if it was the number plate factory workers who went on strike, but that's not what happened. The number plates are there, ready to go, and the state refused to allow Tesla to access them.

Force Majeure is not a blanket blanket right to do whatever you want. It only defends you in cases where you had no reasonable alternative available due to the strike.

I'm reminded of a time when flooding closed a railway line that I'd bought tickets for... the railway company didn't argue force majeure and cancel everyone's booking. They hired a dozen busses. You have an obligation to find a reasonable solution if the service you'd normally provide isn't possible.

In my case, the train service was 100% aware that they had a low bridge over a river that floods whenever there is heavy rain and therefore they couldn't argue that it was an unforeseen event. They would have been liable, not only for the cost of the train ticket, but also for any other damages/etc suffered by someone who was suddenly unable to get where they needed to go (booking a flight or regular bus wasn't possible, those don't have enough spare capacity for an entire train full of people). In this case, there is a perfectly reasonable and zero cost alternative to having license plates delivered by their usual method, and they can't refuse to use that alternative.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#286

Post by stcredzero »

Spivak wrote: post #230
mytailorisrich wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refusing to distribute mail to a specific recipient does not sound like a 'strike' in the sense of labour dispute to me. In France (often used a reference when it comes to striking...) that wouldn't be a legal strike, but obviously every jurisdiction is different. In any case, this also probably breaches EU law related to universal postal service, which states that mail must be delivered to every address 5 days a wee…

This is what sympathy strikes are, if you're a unionized commercial bakery who delivers to a unionized restaurant that's currently striking you don't go and strike against your own boss. That's silly. You refuse to cross the picket line and deliver goods and services to the business who's striking so they have a harder time operating. That's like the entire point. They're so effective lots of places ban them which li…

They're so effective lots of places ban them which like... take that for what it's worth.

In this case, they are violating consensuality. The Tesla workers don't want the collective agreement. The sympathy strikers are outsiders to the Tesla employee pool who are imposing the collective agreement on them.

Given this incident, I can understand why these are banned. It seems to have more to do with a political power play than it does worker's rights.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#287

Post by stcredzero »

einr wrote: post #222
mytailorisrich wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To you perhaps, but not to universal postal service laws... " "The universal service obligation (USO) is the core of the Postal Services Directive (97/67/EC, amended by Directives 2002/39/EC and 2008/6/EC). This is the requirement that letters and parcels should be delivered to each home or business premises, on 5 days each week, throughout each EU country (with exemptions). " Tesla has a right to postal service in t…

Force majeure trumps all obligations. There is no law being broken here.

Force majeure trumps all obligations.

Making unions a "Force majeure" basically gives them the ability to smite as if they were gods.

European states have recently developed this annoying habit of "protecting" the rights of citizens, but then leaving loopholes that render the protections null and void. By recently, I mean since the early 20th century. The Weimar Republic is the poster child of that.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#288

Post by stcredzero »

aaomidi wrote: post #185
susano wrote: post #174

Not overly knowledgeable on Swedish law, but the idea that a public sector union can decide to block public services (in this case postal delivery of license plates) for a single company as a sympathy strike seems pretty nuts to me. Pretty sure Sweden would lose in European court at least (of course it would probably take a long time to percolate there).

This is actually democracy in action. Worker unions are a lot better at making the voices of workers heard and actuated on.

Worker unions are a lot better at making the voices of workers heard and actuated on.

Then why in this case are they violating consensuality and trying to impose the collective agreement on the Tesla worker pool from outside?

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#289

Post by tuukkah »

belltaco wrote: post #135
Hamuko wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like an extremely optimistic timeline for this suit to have gone through the Swedish administrative court, the Swedish administrative court of appeal, the Swedish Supreme Administrative Court, the EU legal system and have the EU legal system impose a penalty payment in 400 days. If Tesla has to do this, I'm guessing their cars are not going to have license plates for quite some time.

Wrong. The longer it takes the better for Tesla because they just won an interim decision in court. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/domstol-teslas-registreri...

This was just one step on one issue. It sounds like Tesla may encounter many other turns and blockers in Sweden and neighbouring countries.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#290

Post by tuukkah »

stcredzero wrote: post #286
Spivak wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what sympathy strikes are, if you're a unionized commercial bakery who delivers to a unionized restaurant that's currently striking you don't go and strike against your own boss. That's silly. You refuse to cross the picket line and deliver goods and services to the business who's striking so they have a harder time operating. That's like the entire point. They're so effective lots of places ban them which li…

They're so effective lots of places ban them which like... take that for what it's worth. In this case, they are violating consensuality. The Tesla workers don't want the collective agreement. The sympathy strikers are outsiders to the Tesla employee pool who are imposing the collective agreement on them. Given this incident, I can understand why these are banned. It seems to have more to do with a political power pl…

At least some Tesla workers do want the collective agreement (without it, they have little protection against the whims of Elon).
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