Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility • Hacker News Board

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#111

Post by handy2000 » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #95

gehwartzen wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can second this. Over the last few years I fixed some hormonal, dietary, and stress issues which resulted in much clearer skin, better hair, and more toned/muscular body; taking me from average to conventionally attractive based on commentary from friends/family. There is a clear boost in first impressions generally being much more positive, my ideas being regarded more highly, and coworkers/leaders wanting to promot…

Yeah that's a whole other dimension to it. The positive feedback loop it creates. With being unattractive, there is a metaphorical "gut punch" of sorts that you always get when meeting people. Often even from people you know. Imagine just before going on stage to give a presentation, getting yourself psyched up, and someone tells you "Your voice sounds kind of weird". It just entirely kicks you off kilter and it come…

Just to add to that: confidence is often a wonderful substitute (or an enhancer?) for conventional physical attractiveness.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#112

Post by gedy » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #51

wiradikusuma wrote: post #13

There's a saying (which could be specific to my country) about men approaching women. If you're handsome it's called flirting, if you're ugly it's sexual harassment. Joking aside, I do notice that successful men (again, maybe specific to my country) tend to be attractive and they usually have an attractive and smart partner. Successful but not attractive men can still have either attractive or smart partner (or both,…

This has gotta be one of my favorite parts of HN, it's an odd glimpse into how men view the world. You've got it backwards. In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted. Why you seem to see a difference in results based on attractiveness is because your average guy can't take a hint no matter how attractive they are. So "success" becomes literally stochastic because guys never back…

> In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted

I worked at a place that had lots of young people and HR's definition included even a single time, and intent does not matter, perception does.

They would also punish without letting the person know who/when/where they were accused by.

This was not theoretical CYA policy, I saw one guy fired and another lose promotion and both swore they did not know why.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#113

Post by colpabar » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 4:36 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #100

orwin wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? I think it's fake women saying that. My sister was raped by her boss, so maybe she is more sensitive, but she box and spend 6 hours a week at the gym (10 hours total if you count boxing), and truly attractive males hit on her daily. Any guy who hit on her without being prompted, even the 'cute' ones (which is, to be fair, a big part of gym goers), get on her 'red flag' list, that she share with her gym and box…

> Just have normal conversation, a bit of small talk, listen and pay attention, flirt a bit, only show off if it doesn't break the rhythm of the moment (better yet, don't show off at all), ask for a date without saying it's a date. It's really hard to do this well and not be boring however. You have to do all those things and also subtly telegraph that you're somehow attracted to them and don't just want to have "a n…

> It's really hard to do this well and not be boring however.

Takes like these are very odd to me. The parent comment is basically saying to have a conversation and if it goes well ask the person out. If said person finds your conversation boring then why would you want to date them in the first place?

So much discourse online about dating is "I HAVE to do X and Y and Z and it's just exhausting", but why? Why go through all this effort if you don't want to? Isn't the whole point of dating to find someone who makes you happy and likes you for who you are?

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#114

Post by handy2000 » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 4:39 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #107

leidenfrost wrote: post #55

This relates to a criticism I have for woke and SJW people: Do they follow the same tendency? Most SJW people I know tend to be critical of the idea of a beauty standard at all, which is an interesting initiative if they can actually pull it off. And I do agree that it would be nice to stop being biased towards conventionally attractive people. Then, with that logic, we should be seeing "woke couples" who don't follo…

As a “woke SJW” I don’t think we’re on the same page for what it means to be “critical of the idea of a beauty standard”. For example, to me being critical of a beauty standard is rejecting the following statement: “All else equal, a person with double eyelids is more attractive than a person with single eyelids” Widespread acceptance of the above statement culturally is an example of a beauty standard, and it’s the…

Your example is overly focused on a small detail. I think what the parent commenter means, is that it's fairly uncommon to see highly attractive women who subscribe to the idea of "everyone is beautiful" date conventionally unattractive men.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#115

Post by fho » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

orwin wrote: post #104

benterix wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be completely frank, this applies to both sexes. As a man it feels nice to be complimented by attractive women but when I face the same attention from women I don't consider attractive and just prefer to have normal work relations with, I feel very awkward. I don't want to sound rude and hurt them, but sometimes when you don't react they take it as an approval to go further. But most of the time just dry "thank yo…

If the woman is attractive, it is different? My commercial is a very attractive female (and I mean, very), she flirted with me (my bad really, I sent weird signals, we didn't knew each other enough for the level of friendlyness I showed, it's an issue in my family, my father and my sister have the same), I put a "i'm moving in with my girlfriend" somewhere later in the discussion (it wasn't exactly true), bam, clarif…

Mentioning a partner very early on seems to be a very common pattern in getting to know people.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#116

Post by Jensson » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #91

Jensson wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you said there is exactly what they mean though. Hot guys acting like assholes and not asking typically doesn't get issues due to the effects you talked about.

I think typically is doing some heavy lifting that simply isn't true. But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right? Get hot enough that you can disregard women's signals because it accidentally works out for you marginally more often seems a lot harder than... ya know not doing that. I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from…

> But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right?

Yes, most guys don't want to be assholes which is why they talk about this. You might notice that when you are out dancing most guys on the floor aren't grinding their crotch against you. The people who are fine with being assholes aren't complaining, you wont find them in these discussions.

> I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure."

The guys who do that don't want to dance with you, they want to sleep with you. Asking for a dance will probably get them girls who wants to dance and not go further, you instantly rejecting them is what they want.

"But if they danced and did some more work then maybe..." But they don't want to go through that, that is the entire point they want to skip the work to build a connection and just do a one-night stand.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#117

Post by fho » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 4:52 PM UTC

bertil wrote: post #32

mushufasa wrote: post #2

Interesting that the effect was stronger in males. It looks like the outcomes tracked were education, income, and occupation. I wonder if this is tracking the wrong things; e.g. women can marry into a higher wealth+prestige class without themselves needing to attain education, income, or a job.

I would look seriously into how that attractiveness was evaluated, and the measurement might be more accurate for men: 1. Criteria for men and women are very different: tall vs. thin is key. If the profiles list height but not BMI, that would lead to discrepancies. 2. Heterosexual women are more likely to agree on which men is attractive then the reverse (which is a classic problem in dating apps: then attention of f…

> (That’s how I learned that `log_salary~height*gender`, `log_salary~height+gender` and `log_salary~height:gender` meant completely different things.)

Interaction terms ftw :-)

I would postulate that every analysis becomes more accurate if you consider the interactions ... but at the same time it makes interpreting (and presenting) the results more complicated.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#118

Post by zozbot234 » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

colpabar wrote: post #113

zozbot234 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just have normal conversation, a bit of small talk, listen and pay attention, flirt a bit, only show off if it doesn't break the rhythm of the moment (better yet, don't show off at all), ask for a date without saying it's a date. It's really hard to do this well and not be boring however. You have to do all those things and also subtly telegraph that you're somehow attracted to them and don't just want to have "a n…

> It's really hard to do this well and not be boring however. Takes like these are very odd to me. The parent comment is basically saying to have a conversation and if it goes well ask the person out. If said person finds your conversation boring then why would you want to date them in the first place? So much discourse online about dating is "I HAVE to do X and Y and Z and it's just exhausting", but why? Why go thro…

> Isn't the whole point of dating to find someone who makes you happy and likes you for who you are?

Yes it is, that's the whole point. As a dude, you're not going to signal "hey I like you for who you are, I care about making you happy" with boring conversation. You need something that's not just that, and is not "keep pestering them and don't take no for an answer" either.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#119

Post by seydor » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

paul7986 wrote: post #92

seydor wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I.e. dating apps you have tons of choice .. you do not ever have to be alone... you post pics on social media and get tons of likes. I could agree with those, but those are a rather limited part of life. They may help us, "the pretty ones" to feel good, but it takes more for someone to be considered successful generally. > you use it to climb the professional ladder. I think this is way overrated and lots of pretty…

If you are a person who has never had any issue with dating options vs. one who has and refuses to settle just to have someone then consider yourself lucky. Living life alone sucks...mine goes in waves where I have found someone for some years who im attracted to yet they are not as respectful to the relationship or me as I am (they cheat or refuse to have an open relationship yet still cheat) to it and them. The dum…

i am being facetious about being "the pretty one" but you are focusing on a single measure here, being alone.

Re: Physical attractiveness and intergenerational social mobility

#120

Post by Obscurity4340 » Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

Dudester230602 wrote: post #99

jameane wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like age hurt him for sure. You see Donald Trump in Home Alone and he looks like an average white dude. But now he looks like a troll.

Plus, an average-looking dude in the 90s had a chance regardless.

Yet another quaint thing (affordable housing, education, chick's standards, boy are we all gettin screwed)