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Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

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Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#111

Post by papichulo2023 »

jesperlang wrote: post #20
fwsgonzo wrote: post #7

The Swedish Transport Agency says they are only able to ship license plates using PostNord according to regulation, so I'm not sure how exactly Tesla thought they were going to win this lawsuit.

Tesla is trying any means necessary since they know that Swedish labour laws are strong: if they do not have a union agreement, workers are allowed to strike (indefinitely). This vacuum we are now in is probably very costly for Tesla so I at this point I think it is an ideological/personal battle..

This could be more expensive for Sweden if the US gov decides to retaliate (current or next one) or companies watching this and considering entering their market or not.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#112

Post by Hikikomori »

lynx23 wrote: post #34
jesperlang wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is trying any means necessary since they know that Swedish labour laws are strong: if they do not have a union agreement, workers are allowed to strike (indefinitely). This vacuum we are now in is probably very costly for Tesla so I at this point I think it is an ideological/personal battle..

If I were Musk, I'd just shut down the whole operation in Sweden. It is not like the country is particularily big.

Currently the 5th biggest market for Tesla.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#113

Post by Stranger43 »

soco wrote: post #96
Stranger43 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way unions work in scandinavia is that they are decentralized but supportive of each other. IE as long as the workers don't form an local chapter everything is fine the problem if that when such a chapter forms and the company ignores it every other union chapter is allowed to refuse to deliver work in support of an company that choose to refuse/fight unionization. So for there to be an conflict there have to be…

I work for a US company and I can tell that US management doesn't give a rat's ass on local customs until it bites them. You can raise and escalate and whatnot, they will still push the locals to implement the illegal/unacceptable stuff if not immediately then boiling the frog - anything goes until some agency or legal suit says whoa stop.

They are engaging lawyers and engaging with some of Sweden's most popular and powerful NGO's that's not doing nothing that's actively throwing money into a fight that's both hard to win and where the worst outcome might actually be for Tesla to "win".

Again the "laizes faire" no labor protections of America just don't exist in Europe the question is weather you negotiate with an equal partner made up from your own employee's or have the state bureaucracy micromanage local details.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#114

Post by rsynnott »

papichulo2023 wrote: post #111
jesperlang wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is trying any means necessary since they know that Swedish labour laws are strong: if they do not have a union agreement, workers are allowed to strike (indefinitely). This vacuum we are now in is probably very costly for Tesla so I at this point I think it is an ideological/personal battle..

This could be more expensive for Sweden if the US gov decides to retaliate (current or next one) or companies watching this and considering entering their market or not.

I mean, this is hardly the first time this has happened; US and other foreign companies have incurred the wrath of the unions in the Nordics before. Why would the US _government_ retaliate against the Swedish _government_ for a dispute between the Swedish unions and a company? What form would this retaliation take? Bear in mind that, for practical purposes, even if for some reason it wanted to (and again, why would it?) the US couldn't really impose trade sanctions on Sweden without starting a trade war with the Common Market as a whole.

As for other companies entering the market, like, this is a thing companies know about the market before going in. This isn't something new.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#115

Post by Hikikomori »

TheChaplain wrote: post #106
ceejayoz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is happening is that the union is using connected companies to force Tesla to sign a collective agreement. Which the rules permit. Being stubborn and winding up in the middle of a multi-union sympathy strike is similarly "entirely voluntary, by law".

Interesting choice of word. If the employees are not interested, the employer is not interested, yet they are forced to do something they do not want (and which is voluntary, again by law) then it's not being "stubborn".

The union is doing this because they have members working for Tesla which has refused to sign a collective agreement for 5 years. Not all workers there have to want it, not even a majority.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#116

Post by rsynnott »

tmikaeld wrote: post #79

What if Tesla just pulled out of the country? Who's worst off? Sweden: - Loss of jobs, I don't know how many. (But the workers would prob. be quite bitter, they earned more with Tesla shops than standard shops) - May be bad for Swedish investments, since a union deal would now be mandatory. - Less electric cars, less good for the environment. - € ~100M/year in tax lost from sales. Tesla: - Loosing € ~350M/year (10K S…

> Less electric cars, less good for the environment.

> € ~100M/year in tax lost from sales.

How's that work? Like, there are other manufacturers; you'd assume VW/Hyundai/BYD would just pick up the slack.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#117

Post by rsynnott »

paganel wrote: post #67
dukeyukey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the Swedish military care if Tesla can or cannot receive licence plates fast enough?

Because with the Russian subs just off the cost of Gotland things might get complicated. Also, Finland is already complaining that Russia is weaponising immigrants, so much so that they've closed 7 out of 8 border posts they have with Russia (if I got the numbers right), and seeing how the problem of immigrants is a very delicate one for Sweden (and for many other Western countries generally speaking) the Swedish peo…

Are you suggesting that Tesla in some way controls the Russian military? I mean, as conspiracy theories go it has the benefit of being original, I suppose.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#118

Post by ekianjo »

Stranger43 wrote: post #77
Pungsnigel wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of companies work without collective agreements in Sweden though. Under law it's completely free if you want to do so or not. You could as well say that the unions are threatening the Swedish model due to taking this to such extreme levels. Especially as it doesn't seem most employees at Tesla want the unions involved.

The way unions work in scandinavia is that they are decentralized but supportive of each other. IE as long as the workers don't form an local chapter everything is fine the problem if that when such a chapter forms and the company ignores it every other union chapter is allowed to refuse to deliver work in support of an company that choose to refuse/fight unionization. So for there to be an conflict there have to be…

[flagged]

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#119

Post by jjgreen »

piva00 wrote: post #33
kmlx wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while this comment is true, not sure what it has to do with the article. from my understanding tesla is actually suing the state because there’s a law saying license plates can only be delivered via post. and the postal workers refuse to deliver anything to tesla (which seems a bit crazy considering there are laws about using the postal services). but maybe i misunderstood something, so someone can correct me if i’m…

> and the postal workers refuse to deliver anything to tesla (which seems a bit crazy considering there are laws about using the postal services). It's not crazy when you understand the Swedish model: labour laws are minimal, setting just a very basic framework which is then taken to employers + employees negotiations to set the other terms of employment for an industry, in that it's a pretty free labour market. The…

Interesting to compare the Swedish model to the UK's. Here, employers can do whatever they like, unions need a full postal ballot to fart.

Re: Tesla sues Swedish state agency over number plate blockage

#120

Post by Hikikomori »

Pungsnigel wrote: post #95
piva00 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do while conditions are ok, it seems like conditions are not ok for these workers hence they pushing for a CBA. And while lots of companies work without a CBA here in Sweden, 90% of employees are covered by CBAs, so the vast majority are covered by one and Tesla fighting this by bringing scabs (a huge, huge no-no in here) is quite stupid. If they thought a CBA would be bad for business then strikes are even wors…

Most employees don't seem to be in support of the unions at this point though? It's a bit hard to tell as there are no official numbers, but from what I've seen it seems like ~90% or so of employees at Tesla remain at work. And there is a high demand for their services, so they could easily go to other companies for work if conditions are bad.

Not all workers have joined the union and wouldn't get paid by the union to strike. But unions use sympathy strikes against companies that might retaliate against their workers if they strike, Tesla has already made threats. So going by how many of the workers at Tesla are striking or not is not a good measurement.
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