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In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

quantamagazine.org

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Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#181

Post by Balgair »

belugacat wrote: post #136

This is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) prob…

Neuroscientist here: There is no such thing as a mind-body duality. Your body is your mind and your mind is your body. Full stop.

We are still in the very infancy of the study of the mind body and brain. We're finally uncovering some of the most basic tools that will serve us for millennia to come. Imagine trying to understand a 2022 Ford F-150 with only a 7/16ths wrench and a flat-head screwdriver: You can get pretty far, but you're not getting anywhere near the cylinders. It's going to take along time to even get the tools to understand the brain.

For example: We don't even have all the basic circuit components that the brain has. We have resistors, capacitors, and inductors. All things that the electrical systems of the brain have analogs to (very very roughly, I am simplifying a lot here). But we're missing the memristor. We know the brain has a memristor, it's the synapse, but we don't really have ones to play around with and use as tools. Yes, you can model these things in software. But then you miss out on most of the ugly reality that is hard/wetware; and that's where all the magic happens.

But that's just the electrical parts of the nervous system. Most of what is happening is in the electrically dark chemistry. Heck, we can't even agree on what percentage of the brain is glia. Is it 50%, is it 90%? Whose paper should you trust? We don't even have a good census of what is in the damn thing!

But of course you can't take the brain in isolation. The inputs and effects on it are still nearly completely unknown to us. And that's not hyperbole either. We really are mostly in the dark as to what effects the brain. Just look at temperature. We know that the rate of firing of neurons goes as T ^ 4. Yes, that's the hypercube of temperature. Even the slightest change in temperature has massive changes to firing rates. How in God's name do any of us function on a hot or cold day!? We haven't the foggiest idea.

So again, we're in the absolute infancy of our study of the brain. Fortunately, most of us HNers are going to live to see a lot of progress in this science. It's an exciting time to be alive.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#182

Post by anthonypasq »

cal85 wrote: post #176
gehwartzen wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it like saying the human body is a PC which has inputs (ports) and outputs (display, sounds) and the brain is like a CPU which has its own inputs and outputs? and you can always go further i.e the transistors have their own inputs and outputs

If that's what is meant by 'an input/output mechanism' then it seems like a pointless observation. It's just saying "you can do things to it, and you can observe things about it", which is true of pretty much anything.

congratulations, you've just discovered the theory of computation

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#183

Post by dghughes »

agumonkey wrote: post #47
MrDresden wrote: post #13

I've noticed that my 'first' brain acts faster and better if my 'second' brain is feeling good. Probiotic foods, plenty of water and movement have been key factors there.

There's also a strange satisfaction when skipping one or two meals. Even though you feel craving food for a little while, there's a feeling of being light, lean and sharp, even mentally.

On reddit there was post where a group of gastroenterologists answering questions. One comment from the doctors was, paraphrasing: "let your stomach growl it's needed for the health of your gut".

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#184

Post by BadCookie »

jb1991 wrote: post #150
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument stays the same though. Your body is reducible to an input/output mechanism. In terms of complexity, since we haven't solved brain yet, it doesn't matter that much that there's also other parts of the body involved, as we don't even know the exact complexity of the brain, but the argument stays the same. In theory we are input/output mechanism, possible to emulate if there's enough capacity. But in additi…

In my opinion, a living creature is more than just an input and output mechanism. If I were to think up one way to define consciousness, it would be that it provides output even in the absence of inputs.

The ability to experience pleasure and pain seems important. If we’re just input/output mechanisms, then why would killing somebody even matter?

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#185

Post by vacuumcl »

belugacat wrote: post #136

This is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) prob…

I don't see why this changes anything. There are some, sort-of intelligent networks of cells in the gut that help in digestion and other processes. Doesn't change the fact that consciousness resides in the brain.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#186

Post by petesergeant »

gardenhedge wrote: post #177
petesergeant wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quitting drinking for three years fixed mine, an unexpected side effect. Going keto also taught me that wheat gives me heart burn, which again, wasn’t an expected side effect. I drink and eat small amounts of wheat now without issue. Having been skeptical, I think I would recommend elimination diets to people just to see if there’s an unexpected benefit to cutting an unexpected item

After quitting drinking, did it take 3 years to see the effect? Do you drink any non-alcoholic/0.0% beers?

I don’t really remember, sorry, I just sort of realized after a while that the issues I’d had went away. During that period I drank a lot of Heineken Blue, yep. I’ve since started drinking again too and been fine (in my gut, at least)

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#188

Post by ChatGTP »

BadCookie wrote: post #184
jb1991 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, a living creature is more than just an input and output mechanism. If I were to think up one way to define consciousness, it would be that it provides output even in the absence of inputs.

The ability to experience pleasure and pain seems important. If we’re just input/output mechanisms, then why would killing somebody even matter?

Why exist at all? Because it’s fun.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#189

Post by agumonkey »

dontlaugh wrote: post #178
bear141 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is fairly broad and vague, but your comment has taken those two things to an extreme.

I'm just pointing out that your theory is trivially disproven. An excess of comfort is probably still bad, but I doubt it's the main cause of obesity.

It all hinges on how we define comfort. A comfy villager 500 years ago, with fruits and meat nearby was probably never really hungry, but, I'd argue:

- never the amount of processed calories at hand - had to consume these calories on a regular basis.. no vehicles, no powered tools except the occasional mill, most things required walking of lifting

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#190

Post by mewpmewp2 »

BadCookie wrote: post #184
jb1991 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, a living creature is more than just an input and output mechanism. If I were to think up one way to define consciousness, it would be that it provides output even in the absence of inputs.

The ability to experience pleasure and pain seems important. If we’re just input/output mechanisms, then why would killing somebody even matter?

What do you mean by matter? As species most of us developed bias to not killing because we have better odds of surviving if we work together.
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