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In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

quantamagazine.org

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Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#141

Post by kashyapc »

belugacat wrote: post #136

This is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) prob…

Also see the "somatic marker hypothesis"[1][2] by neuroscientist, Antonio Damasio. It's about how various internal body "markers" deeply influence decision-making. I first read it in his 1991 book, Descarte's Error.

Quoting from here[1]:

"Somatic markers" are feelings in the body that are associated with emotions, such as the association of rapid heartbeat with anxiety or of nausea with disgust. According to the hypothesis, somatic markers strongly influence subsequent decision-making. Within the brain, somatic markers are thought to be processed in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC) and the amygdala. [...]"

Although, experimental evidence is not as yet as robust as it needs to be. See the "Experimental evidence" and "Criticism" sections here[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_marker_hypothesis

[2] https://sci-hub.se/https://www.jstor.org/stable/3069187

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#142

Post by chiefalchemist »

armada651 wrote: post #139
belugacat wrote: post #136

This is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) prob…

"your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" It still is though, you will reach human intelligence by just modeling the brain. The problem is that you probably won't reach an emotionally stable human since you'll be missing all the emotional/hormonal signaling that comes from the rest of the body, but we can emulate that without having to model the fu…

Shortened: Modeling how the brain works is not synonymous with how humans work.

We just need to maintain our awareness of that difference.

The good news is, it makes replacing humans - trait for trait - far more more complicated.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#143

Post by poszlem »

theshrike79 wrote: post #67
jimmySixDOF wrote: post #50

There was something about the vegus nerve being influenced by gut microbiota so it's also the parasympathetic not just the enteric nervous system but this is all hard to study I subscribed to u-Boime for a couple of years until that imploded spectacularly and the few snapshots I had are not enough of a sample size this whole field is so data poor and uncertain.

The vagus nerve is the weirdest thing. Had to dig into it a bit to figure out my acid reflux. Basically if I eat stuff that doesn't digest well, my stomach bloats and causes a mild hiatal hernia, which in turn presses on the vagus nerve that travels right next to it. This causes the _exact_ same symptoms as a panic attack. Cold hands and feet, the feeling of an increased heart rate etc. Not super fun when you have a…

"Gastrocardiac syndrome" might be considered outdated in the medical world (not sure what they mean by that), but it's been a real thing for me. I started getting clued up on the vagus nerve because of frequent weird heartbeats (which turned out to be PVCs and PACs that my cardiologist diagnosed after I bought my own portable ECG thingy to catch them), especially when I bent over or lay on my side. After finding out I had a hiatal hernia and starting on omeprazole, those odd heartbeats dropped a ton, like by 90%.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#144

Post by armada651 »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #142
armada651 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" It still is though, you will reach human intelligence by just modeling the brain. The problem is that you probably won't reach an emotionally stable human since you'll be missing all the emotional/hormonal signaling that comes from the rest of the body, but we can emulate that without having to model the fu…

Shortened: Modeling how the brain works is not synonymous with how humans work. We just need to maintain our awareness of that difference. The good news is, it makes replacing humans - trait for trait - far more more complicated.

> The good news is, it makes replacing humans - trait for trait - far more more complicated.

I wouldn't take much comfort in that. You can probably reach something that resembles a human by just providing an alternative set of signals. We already do this with the reward mechanism during training and that is proving very effective.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#145

Post by agumonkey »

93po wrote: post #133
agumonkey wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem, biology is so complex and vast, we're all gonna have differences. Thanks for replying.

God I wish all internet discussion was like this

I use emacs AND vi.

facetiousness aside, it's really cool to have others return on experience. Even though I kinda made a blanket statement originally, I wasn't trying to enforce my opinion, it was more of a regular result I tried to share.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#146

Post by mewpmewp2 »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #142
armada651 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" It still is though, you will reach human intelligence by just modeling the brain. The problem is that you probably won't reach an emotionally stable human since you'll be missing all the emotional/hormonal signaling that comes from the rest of the body, but we can emulate that without having to model the fu…

Shortened: Modeling how the brain works is not synonymous with how humans work. We just need to maintain our awareness of that difference. The good news is, it makes replacing humans - trait for trait - far more more complicated.

Why is it good news?

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#147

Post by mewpmewp2 »

belugacat wrote: post #136

This is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) prob…

The argument stays the same though. Your body is reducible to an input/output mechanism.

In terms of complexity, since we haven't solved brain yet, it doesn't matter that much that there's also other parts of the body involved, as we don't even know the exact complexity of the brain, but the argument stays the same.

In theory we are input/output mechanism, possible to emulate if there's enough capacity.

But in addition AGI wouldn't require many traits that humans have since it doesn't need the same evolutionary survival mechanisms. It only needs part of it.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#148

Post by mewpmewp2 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #138
belugacat wrote: post #136

This is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) prob…

Yes you are probably right, but generally I don't get why AGI needs to be 100% mimicking every aspect of human, just better/faster. Like proverbial skynet can have extreme excellence in one/few aspect of general intelligence but can be muted to almost 0 on everything else, say emotions, yet still be falling into AGI behavior and could take over the world. It doesn't need to simulate gut interactions to get there. And…

> And I think for such an entity we may be closer to emerging than we like

Why are people talking about it as if it was a bad thing? If I listen to people everyone seems to be dissatisfied with their life as of now, due to work, politics, society and everything else. If AGI was to arrive it would potentially remove those frustrations, right.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#149

Post by burglekutt »

porkbeer wrote: post #123
astrange wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried collagen powder before, because it's very easy to take since it easily dissolves in drinks (and I think actually improves them), and I think it made my hair and nails grow faster but didn't do much else.

Just eat some pork rinds/chicarones. Cheap and delicious fat collagen rich bites. They get a bad rap but are quite healthy if mimimally processed.

I’m always on the lookout for chícharones cooked in a healthy fat, but I’ve never found them cooked in anything but vegetable oils.

Re: In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge

#150

Post by jb1991 »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #147
belugacat wrote: post #136

This is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) prob…

The argument stays the same though. Your body is reducible to an input/output mechanism. In terms of complexity, since we haven't solved brain yet, it doesn't matter that much that there's also other parts of the body involved, as we don't even know the exact complexity of the brain, but the argument stays the same. In theory we are input/output mechanism, possible to emulate if there's enough capacity. But in additi…

In my opinion, a living creature is more than just an input and output mechanism. If I were to think up one way to define consciousness, it would be that it provides output even in the absence of inputs.
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