Earlier quoted context omitted.
I bet he meant ppl coming from specific country :) I've heard about it already
What company?
Apple.
75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
91–100 of 159 posts
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#92I have left the last 2 shops I worked at due to being put into shitty situations and either nothing was done, or for my last role I was very clearly forced to have no choice but to quit. I'll keep the details to a minimum to protect their and my own privacy, though I'm not sure I owe them that. 2 jobs ago: I was told by my cto that we were going to use a pen testing firm to get a report on our new system, pretty stan…
I wrote another day, that the co-workers are not the friends. Many disagreed. But that’s typical shit. The psycho stories are rare and nobody believes them unless one experiences that in person. A colleague can go from nice sport partner to complete psycho when circumstances change. I got lots of advice from my parents and grandparents about work. I thought, it was some decades old crap. But I was wrong. I naively believed, that going to work and delivering best results is what counts. Wrong!!! That does not count! I was too young and too stupid not to analyze entrenched actors and who’s really in control. My direct manager was not in control, he was a clerk for weird group of people on different levels. That was very funny, because I have great experience in my field. And every project plan I created for a stupid device was canceled, because it interfered with parts designed by important people. My work was sabotaged for years. I even reported some weird hardware buying scheme at the 5x market rate. Made myself very unpopular. Lost belief in my skills completely. Found a new job as software developer leaving hardware design completely, because this area is poisoned to me by my last job. My sanity was saved by running a consultancy on the side. I delivered everything what clients asked on time and with acceptable quality, so I know, that everything I do is all right. Despite that I had hard time digesting the situation at work and comparing it to my own results. The gap was just too big. Now I see that my project was always derailed by the important guy without any technical knowledge, but with connections everywhere. This story costs the company millions. Because the current system is like from 1985 looking at the technical level of it. But since the important people stick to it (because this outdated crap keeps them important) nothing will change. Depending on factory load the yearly loss can be two digit million number. But in the reality nobody cares about such things, it’s a collateral in a game of power.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#93I have watched HR videos while employed at every tech company I have worked at that would insist that retaliation is forbidden and it's ok to report wrongdoing. Let's say, for example, I wanted to report something along the lines of: becoming a manager, then every one on the team slowly being replaced with at . I'm not convinced this is possible without retaliation. I would love to see a survey with one question aske…
It's so bad, sometimes you face pre-emptive retaliation if you have a habit of speaking up lol. HR says that to avoid lawsuits. If you bring retaliation and bullying to HR, you will be fired but not right away so it won't look like retaliation but maybe after significant time has passed. The best place you can be in corporate america is unseen by middle management and have a good immediate boss who values you.
It still baffles me to think that some still believe that HR is on their side. Human resource is there to safeguard the company from regulatory, compliance, and legal challenges.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#94I know a girl at a Fortune 500 company (not a dev) who was in corporate sales. She went with a more experienced sales person (a guy) who took her and the client to Hooters. No joke. This is like 2019 so in full swing Me Too movement. When she reported it she was immediately put on a PIP for bad performance. Then she was really dressed down privately by her boss for bringing it up. She taped the convo (legal in her st…
Glad she got something for that awful treatment. But the thing is, this sort of thing doesn't really scale. A lot of (most?) people don't have the time/resources to attempt any of this and are too afraid to have a future job call the previous job and hear negative feedback because of the retaliation, thus hindering future employment prospects. The whole thing is extremely against the employee. And the companies know…
It definitely doesn't scale. And if this is before Me Too then she doesn't get anything either. But, idk what else you can do. I'm glad she got some good money out of it but as you said for most people it's not possible.
Most people who even have the money don't want to risk it, they just move on.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
And what wrongdoing do you think is happening in this scenario?
In-group preferences. Granted, there are non-discriminatory explanations: say your manager just happens to know a lot of potential referrals that are of the same identity group. This is totally plausible, most people do indeed tend to have more social connections with people sharing identity characteristics. It's hard to know for sure if favoritism is happening. The way to tell would be to send effectively identical…
It should be noted that even if there is a non-discriminatory explanation, it is still illegal under the disparate impact legal theory:
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#96What's the definition of "wrongdoing" in the context of this article?... * Criminality? * Illegality? * Immorality (and according to whose standards)? * Misrepresentation/dishonesty? * Abuse?
Does it matter? The start of the article is talking about reporting stuff _to their employer_, not e.g. a government watchdog or something.
> 53% of software engineers have suspected wrongdoing at work with ~145,000 software engineers in the UK having experienced retaliation the last time they reported it _to their employers_. (emphasis mine)
If your company is silently setting the policy that _internal communication_ raising that something bad is going on will be punished, then you're creating an environment where all of these will flourish.
Even if the reporter is mistaken about whether something is illegal, or holds a moral view which is not shared by most of upper management, the responsible response is still, "thanks for raising this to our attention; we'll have someone appropriately unrelated to the complaint look into it." If your response is "telling us about bad stuff will be punished" then obviously when something bad occurs that you'd actually want to stop (e.g. b/c it will create legal liabilities, damage the brand, etc), you'll learn about it too late.
Even the framing of high rates of "retaliation" sort of presumes that _reporting something wrong_ internally is a hostile action, which is already toxic and dangerous.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's so bad, sometimes you face pre-emptive retaliation if you have a habit of speaking up lol. HR says that to avoid lawsuits. If you bring retaliation and bullying to HR, you will be fired but not right away so it won't look like retaliation but maybe after significant time has passed. The best place you can be in corporate america is unseen by middle management and have a good immediate boss who values you.
It still baffles me to think that some still believe that HR is on their side. Human resource is there to safeguard the company from regulatory, compliance, and legal challenges.
Some people are inexperienced and/or naturally trusting. HR always talks sweet and acts like they're the good guys here to help you. They wouldn't do this unless some people were going to fall for it.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#98I feel like I'm still facing retaliation for quitting a company 3 years ago. I'm more experienced and more efficient than I've ever been as a software engineer but I can't keep a job and nobody answers my job applications anymore even after changing countries (I have multiple citizenships). I apply for hundreds and get literally 0 calls back. Even my sister who works in HR can't believe it so we started applying toge…
> I apply for hundreds and get literally 0 calls back
You can’t meaningfully apply for hundreds of jobs. Apply to 3 or 4 and spend 10x longer on each application. Email the recruiter telling them why you are interested and a good fit, tailor your resume to each one.
I’ve sat on plenty of hiring calls and in my personal experience there are just too many candidates applying with the completely wrong credentials or background using LinkedIn “easy apply” or the equivalent. Nearly all of those just basically get “easy rejected” on our first pass through candidates.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
Give us a hint: was it legal pre-1965?
I worked at a place where the person in charge of hiring for that department passed on a great candidate that was black, not because he didn't like black people IMO, but because he said "if were wrong about him being great, black people are way too hard to fire". That was the only openly crazy racist statement I've really ever heard in a corporate environment.
It may be useful to separate fact and ideology here. I.e.:
(1) Does such a dynamic exist?
(2) If so, what's the right way to deal with that fact during hiring?
It's harder to have a meaningful discussion if those two things are conflated.
Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless you are independently wealthy, you are indeed a cog. Maybe you're a well paid cog. But you're still a cog. Even doctors have to work for a living. That makes them a cog too. Nothing wrong with seeing where you fit, and securing your future with strategic choices to get away from toxic shit. But you're still a cog. And you can be an engineer and still be a cog. The other name for a "cog" is a proletariat.
Engineers are bourgeoisie.
Some engineers and part of the professional managerial class. Many (if not most) engineers are proletarians