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75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

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Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#81

Post by olliej »

jimbob45 wrote: post #75
xboxnolifes wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter in the context of the article? Would any option from that list make retaliation okay?

If I report my boss for an off-color joke about Sri Lankans, I might rightfully be seen as a firestarter or someone who is looking for trouble so that they can tattle. I’m okay with quashing tattletales. If I report my boss because I see him embezzling company funds and I’m retaliated against, that would be less okay.

Are you saying that retaliation for report a person in a hiring position making racist jokes is reasonable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Racism in employment is explicitly illegal, and any Sri Lankan could now point to this manager's "off color" (racist) jokes as evidence of race based bias at your company. e.g. this manager's behavior is creating significant legal and financial risk for the company.

That said you should absolutely report the racist, sexist, homophobic, or transphobic "jokes" and if your company retaliates because "you're a tattletale for reporting discriminatory comments in our workplace so we should punish/fire them" you should sue them, for quite a lot of money. Because here's the thing, a new hire, an intern, or a person on a work based visa say may not feel safe making a complaint, especially if they're the subject group for the discriminatory "joke" as this manager has already demonstrated they're worth joking about. So if you are in a position where you can report such behaviour you can directly help others.

Also it's a professional environment, even if it were legal, wtf is a manager or anyone making racist jokes?

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#82

Post by geraldwhen »

newZWhoDis wrote: post #62
wccrawford wrote: post #61

I once reported something that my boss said to the heads of the company. They sent HR in to take care of it instead. My boss said, "I could get fired for what you said I did." He didn't deny it, just that I could cause him to get fired. I said, "Yeah!" or something similar. The company's response? I was to talk to my boss first next time before going above his head. For something he did that was (I think) illegal, an…

Give us a hint: was it legal pre-1965?

I’ve heard “HR said we can’t hire any more white men”.

Was that exactly what HR said? Who knows. But it affected that hiring round.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#83

Post by pierat »

tekla wrote: post #46
hsavit1 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not everyone has the ability to quit their jobs on the spot for morality sake. there is no social safety net in america. people can't risk losing their jobs and health insurance

Then you aren't an engineer. You are just a cog.

Unless you are independently wealthy, you are indeed a cog. Maybe you're a well paid cog. But you're still a cog.

Even doctors have to work for a living. That makes them a cog too.

Nothing wrong with seeing where you fit, and securing your future with strategic choices to get away from toxic shit. But you're still a cog.

And you can be an engineer and still be a cog.

The other name for a "cog" is a proletariat.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#84

Post by partdavid »

terminous wrote: post #43
partdavid wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be the first time you've considered the question, but it's not novel. The ACM has a code of ethics required for membership. A compatriot of mine has focused on encouraging employers to pay for their engineers' ACM memberships, and require membership, as a way of advancing ethical standards in the profession. Of course it's not perfect, but it's not like it's the first time it's occurred to someone to addre…

> The ACM has a code of ethics required for membership. The ACM has never taken action against an ACM member for an ethics violation that was not directly related to research misconduct in an ACM publication (edit: or inappropriate behavior at an ACM conference). Unlike a medical board or bar association, the ACM has no capacity, resources, or staff tasked to enforce even research ethics violations outside of ACM pub…

These are all very valid points, and I appreciate you making them!

But what I was trying to point out to GP is that the conversation here is not starting from 0. Certainly I'm not suggesting that ACM membership or their code is a sufficient answer, or the only possible answer.

As a tangent, I'll point out that often, codes of conduct or ethical guidelines aren't "policed" in the way you seem to imply--by some kind of active enforcement function. They generally come up after the fact, in some venue like a deposition or court case where questions like "did X act in accordance with the generally accepted standards and practices of Y". And I wouldn't expect the ACM to publicize most of what they do, anyway.

The reason I bring up ACM and their code of conduct is because a compatriot of mine has been advocating for companies to encourage or require their employees to become members of the ACM, and to pay for it. The idea being that progress can be made on becoming the kind of big-P professional GP is describing. I don't really know if that can work, but I do think it sounds like it's better than nothing. And that it could be a basis for improvement in time.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#85

Post by askonomm »

gotoeleven wrote: post #80
talldatethrow wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a place where the person in charge of hiring for that department passed on a great candidate that was black, not because he didn't like black people IMO, but because he said "if were wrong about him being great, black people are way too hard to fire". That was the only openly crazy racist statement I've really ever heard in a corporate environment.

[flagged]

How is this a fact? I'd like some references for that. And also, last I checked, negative treatment based on colour of skin (such as in this case NOT hiring a person) is, in fact, racist.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#86

Post by worthless-trash »

xvilka wrote: post #19

As long as management will be done by people, it will happen. It either should be done by computer/AI/whatever completely, or it should be controlled by purely emotionless and unbiased entities.

With any luck this will happen sooner than later.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#87

Post by askonomm »

DoesntMatter22 wrote: post #66

I know a girl at a Fortune 500 company (not a dev) who was in corporate sales. She went with a more experienced sales person (a guy) who took her and the client to Hooters. No joke. This is like 2019 so in full swing Me Too movement. When she reported it she was immediately put on a PIP for bad performance. Then she was really dressed down privately by her boss for bringing it up. She taped the convo (legal in her st…

Glad she got something for that awful treatment. But the thing is, this sort of thing doesn't really scale. A lot of (most?) people don't have the time/resources to attempt any of this and are too afraid to have a future job call the previous job and hear negative feedback because of the retaliation, thus hindering future employment prospects. The whole thing is extremely against the employee.

And the companies know this. That 1 person a year that has the balls to retaliate and who the company has to eventually settle with is effectively just a cost of doing business, and so nothing changes.

I once worked for a crypto startup that turned out to build a ponzi scheme. I of course quit, and asked for my due money from paychecks not paid yet. No money to be seen. I reported the startup to the police, but the police didn't seem all too interested for doing anything about it. I then threatened the startup with going to the local business news outlet and reporting my story, to which they finally responded with and gave my missing money, but the thing is - I had talked to the business outlet, and they also didn't care about the story. I was bluffing and just got lucky. And as far as I know they continued with their business just fine.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#88

Post by zmgsabst »

pierat wrote: post #83
tekla wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you aren't an engineer. You are just a cog.

Unless you are independently wealthy, you are indeed a cog. Maybe you're a well paid cog. But you're still a cog. Even doctors have to work for a living. That makes them a cog too. Nothing wrong with seeing where you fit, and securing your future with strategic choices to get away from toxic shit. But you're still a cog. And you can be an engineer and still be a cog. The other name for a "cog" is a proletariat.

Engineers are bourgeoisie.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#89

Post by ganeshkrishnan »

ambrice wrote: post #72

More accurate headline would be "75% of Software Engineers Who Reported Wrongdoing Claim They Faced Retaliation". I know there are some obvious cases where people were explicitly retaliated against, but I'm also not sure you can just automatically trust someone when they say they didn't get that raise they obviously deserved due to retaliation. Also, I stared at this sentence for a long time trying to figure it out:…

I worked in a big media company and the department next to me had a manager that would get angry and throw stuff on the wall. Once he grabbed the desk IP phone and threw it at the white board, cord and all.

Made some of the employees pretty nervous in weekly meetings. One of them complained to the HR. The employee's contract was not renewed that quarter and nothing ever came of the manager.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#90

Post by ganeshkrishnan »

einpoklum wrote: post #24

What's the definition of "wrongdoing" in the context of this article?... * Criminality? * Illegality? * Immorality (and according to whose standards)? * Misrepresentation/dishonesty? * Abuse?

I have seen criminality being reported in written format and sometimes to as high as the Federal Police and nothing ever come of it.

Those with power are not going to roll over and accept their mistakes and change. They arm twist everyone and everything to get their way.

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