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75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

engprax.com

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Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#51

Post by tester756 »

Loughla wrote: post #47
TriangleEdge wrote: post #38

I have watched HR videos while employed at every tech company I have worked at that would insist that retaliation is forbidden and it's ok to report wrongdoing. Let's say, for example, I wanted to report something along the lines of: becoming a manager, then every one on the team slowly being replaced with at . I'm not convinced this is possible without retaliation. I would love to see a survey with one question aske…

Is attribute illegal or harassing or just something you don't like? Because those are very important distinctions for formal complaints.

I bet he meant ppl coming from specific country :)

I've heard about it already

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#52

Post by ajb »

isilofi wrote: post #26
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was a website, their ToS can say anything, it's still legal to download everything there.

Maybe, maybe not. But his main fault was pointing out the possible legal problem. As soon as he pointed to it, simple negligence and a possible Chewbacca defense became intent. Which is a huge difference in legal interpretation and penalties.

Yeah. You report these things verbally in person, not on written media. This has two advantages: your employer can decide to investigate or forget about it, and you can judge whether you are getting a bad response in person during your report, and act accordingly.

You make a report in writing if you could personally be held liable, and you want your disagreement on the record. But doing so is a burning your bridges moment.

Not quite sure how you handle this if you are remote...

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#53

Post by creer »

parkerhiggins wrote: post #2

I've found that there isn't a lot of discussion or research around this subject. Shoutout to engprax, a compliance company, for clearly approaching the issue. Is it actually an issue though? Software engineers by design (?) are not capital "P" professionals. There's no certification or board underwriting our work. Software engineering/developers have had the latitude to "move fast" and represent the only "professiona…

> Is it actually an issue though?

The corporations (companies, not trade associations) should care - even if the engineers tough it out. It's often an issue to them. Besides avoiding costly incoming litigation, corporations shouldn't be in the business of encouraging fiefdom, empire building, all the way to outright racism or harassement in groups. None of this overall helps the corporation achieve its objectives. While a manager is busy hiring only their friends or whatever other hobby they have, they are not doing their job.

Conflicts of interest do appear when a corporation estimates a person or group does a very effective "technical" job in spite of their hobbies. Then there's a dilemna: rebuild that group or tolerate the BS a little longer. Even then, they really should care.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#54

Post by hardware2win »

TriangleEdge wrote: post #38

I have watched HR videos while employed at every tech company I have worked at that would insist that retaliation is forbidden and it's ok to report wrongdoing. Let's say, for example, I wanted to report something along the lines of: becoming a manager, then every one on the team slowly being replaced with at . I'm not convinced this is possible without retaliation. I would love to see a survey with one question aske…

>I would love to see a survey with one question asked at all tech companies with more then 100 employees. "Promotions are based on merit, answer from 0 to 10."

I work in company which had huge freezings and promotions almost fully paused during last 1.5 year. The only promoted ppl that I worked close enough to evaluate them were really, really good.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#55

Post by paulcole »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #45
einpoklum wrote: post #24

What's the definition of "wrongdoing" in the context of this article?... * Criminality? * Illegality? * Immorality (and according to whose standards)? * Misrepresentation/dishonesty? * Abuse?

Does it matter in the context of the article? Would any option from that list make retaliation okay?

> Immorality (and according to whose standards)?

> Misrepresentation/dishonesty?

These can be a matter of perspective and if someone’s morals doesn’t align with their employer’s, then they probably shouldn’t work there.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#56

Post by tjpnz »

jongjong wrote: post #50

I feel like I'm still facing retaliation for quitting a company 3 years ago. I'm more experienced and more efficient than I've ever been as a software engineer but I can't keep a job and nobody answers my job applications anymore even after changing countries (I have multiple citizenships). I apply for hundreds and get literally 0 calls back. Even my sister who works in HR can't believe it so we started applying toge…

>junior devs straight out of no-name universities

Nobody cares what university you went to.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#57

Post by isilofi »

ajb wrote: post #52
isilofi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, maybe not. But his main fault was pointing out the possible legal problem. As soon as he pointed to it, simple negligence and a possible Chewbacca defense became intent. Which is a huge difference in legal interpretation and penalties.

Yeah. You report these things verbally in person, not on written media. This has two advantages: your employer can decide to investigate or forget about it, and you can judge whether you are getting a bad response in person during your report, and act accordingly. You make a report in writing if you could personally be held liable, and you want your disagreement on the record. But doing so is a burning your bridges m…

> You report these things verbally in person, not on written media.

I think this is dangerous. If push comes to shove, you will not have anything to defend yourself with, because of no documentation.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#58

Post by ed-209 »

tester756 wrote: post #51
Loughla wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is attribute illegal or harassing or just something you don't like? Because those are very important distinctions for formal complaints.

I bet he meant ppl coming from specific country :) I've heard about it already

What company?

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#59

Post by creer »

isilofi wrote: post #26
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was a website, their ToS can say anything, it's still legal to download everything there.

Maybe, maybe not. But his main fault was pointing out the possible legal problem. As soon as he pointed to it, simple negligence and a possible Chewbacca defense became intent. Which is a huge difference in legal interpretation and penalties.

Which is why, shouldn't the right course of action be for that person to point out the potential problem (and in writing is fine), and a legal dept or exec to come back with a theory of why it's fine and we are going to continue doing it? - It's not like it's all that hard under the current legal system.

Things are much more likely to go sideways if (a) there was already some background feeling that this person had to go, or (b) the person makes a nuisance of themselves after legal or higher-ups have already decided that no, this was fine.

Seems to me when a manager "jumps straight to firing" someone, either they are insane or there is something missing to the story. Insane is very much not impossible (and disfunction itself obviously) but missing story is not impossible either.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#60

Post by mcpackieh »

tester756 wrote: post #51
Loughla wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is attribute illegal or harassing or just something you don't like? Because those are very important distinctions for formal complaints.

I bet he meant ppl coming from specific country :) I've heard about it already

I've seen it and heard of it numerous times with India and China. But not Korea, Japan, Pakistan, or other countries. I find this inexplicable.
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