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75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

engprax.com

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Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#41

Post by generic92034 »

JohnFen wrote: post #35
generic92034 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me that is a bit too simple (no offense meant). If you are threatened you have to balance the harm you would be suffering by not complying with the harm you would be causing by complying.

I wasn't really saying differently. What I'm saying is that if you choose to do something you know is wrong -- even if it you feel there is no other option -- you're still doing wrong and are responsible for that.

True, but sometimes you are caught between a rock and a hard place. While it does not change the responsibility for your decision, it changes the ethics.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#42

Post by _8j50 »

TriangleEdge wrote: post #38

I have watched HR videos while employed at every tech company I have worked at that would insist that retaliation is forbidden and it's ok to report wrongdoing. Let's say, for example, I wanted to report something along the lines of: becoming a manager, then every one on the team slowly being replaced with at . I'm not convinced this is possible without retaliation. I would love to see a survey with one question aske…

It's so bad, sometimes you face pre-emptive retaliation if you have a habit of speaking up lol. HR says that to avoid lawsuits. If you bring retaliation and bullying to HR, you will be fired but not right away so it won't look like retaliation but maybe after significant time has passed.

The best place you can be in corporate america is unseen by middle management and have a good immediate boss who values you.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#43

Post by terminous »

partdavid wrote: post #14
parkerhiggins wrote: post #2

I've found that there isn't a lot of discussion or research around this subject. Shoutout to engprax, a compliance company, for clearly approaching the issue. Is it actually an issue though? Software engineers by design (?) are not capital "P" professionals. There's no certification or board underwriting our work. Software engineering/developers have had the latitude to "move fast" and represent the only "professiona…

This might be the first time you've considered the question, but it's not novel. The ACM has a code of ethics required for membership. A compatriot of mine has focused on encouraging employers to pay for their engineers' ACM memberships, and require membership, as a way of advancing ethical standards in the profession. Of course it's not perfect, but it's not like it's the first time it's occurred to someone to addre…

> The ACM has a code of ethics required for membership.

The ACM has never taken action against an ACM member for an ethics violation that was not directly related to research misconduct in an ACM publication (edit: or inappropriate behavior at an ACM conference). Unlike a medical board or bar association, the ACM has no capacity, resources, or staff tasked to enforce even research ethics violations outside of ACM publications, much less ACM members day-to-day work they don't submit to a publication. And even then, it is up to the peer reviewers and editors of that publication. Otherwise, it remains just a list of suggestions.

At one time the ethics code said ACM members should respect terms of service, which means no bots or web scraping, but that was never enforced. You can find tons of research in ACM publications that uses web scraping of big sites that prohibit it in the ToS. The ACM certainly doesn't have capacity to police ethics violations by ACM members in industry. And if it started to do so, I suspect you'd see ACM membership plummet by those who fear they could be next.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#45

Post by xboxnolifes »

einpoklum wrote: post #24

What's the definition of "wrongdoing" in the context of this article?... * Criminality? * Illegality? * Immorality (and according to whose standards)? * Misrepresentation/dishonesty? * Abuse?

Does it matter in the context of the article? Would any option from that list make retaliation okay?

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#46

Post by tekla »

hsavit1 wrote: post #8
JohnFen wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not agree more. We are all responsible for our actions and the results our actions cause. "I was just following orders" in no way absolves anyone of that responsibility. That you may pay a price for doing the right thing doesn't make avoiding doing it acceptable.

not everyone has the ability to quit their jobs on the spot for morality sake. there is no social safety net in america. people can't risk losing their jobs and health insurance

Then you aren't an engineer. You are just a cog.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#47

Post by Loughla »

TriangleEdge wrote: post #38

I have watched HR videos while employed at every tech company I have worked at that would insist that retaliation is forbidden and it's ok to report wrongdoing. Let's say, for example, I wanted to report something along the lines of: becoming a manager, then every one on the team slowly being replaced with at . I'm not convinced this is possible without retaliation. I would love to see a survey with one question aske…

Is attribute illegal or harassing or just something you don't like?

Because those are very important distinctions for formal complaints.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#49

Post by dehrmann »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #5

Just 75%? A friend was working for one of those AI startups. They wanted him to download and effectively steal documents for training their LLM. When he pointed out that the TOS explicitly forbade mass downloading, they fired him immediately. Sleezy times.

It's not clear if a TOS can be used to de facto limit fair use, or if use for LLM training is fair use or not.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#50

Post by jongjong »

I feel like I'm still facing retaliation for quitting a company 3 years ago. I'm more experienced and more efficient than I've ever been as a software engineer but I can't keep a job and nobody answers my job applications anymore even after changing countries (I have multiple citizenships). I apply for hundreds and get literally 0 calls back. Even my sister who works in HR can't believe it so we started applying together. I constantly hear stories of junior devs straight out of no-name universities getting jobs easily with huge salaries. I don't know what the heck is going on. Is there some algorithm systematically filtering me out based on my name or seniority?
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