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Gang crisis shaking Sweden

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Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#241

Post by Lacerda69 »

arthur_sav wrote: post #131
woodruffw wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what, exactly, is the "elephant in the room"? If this is meant to be a dogwhistle about immigration, it seems appropriate to observe that many of the countries TFA compares Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates.

As someone who has lived in some of these countries in the past 10 years. Sweden is simply too nice to criminals. Police, laws... everything. Other countries have no tolerance for that.

Sweden has far less crime than countries with harsher sentences or a more punitive criminal system.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#242

Post by alephnerd »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #164
silenced_trope wrote: post #102

> Those on the right largely blame immigration, which has added 2mn people to the country in recent decades. Those on the left point to social factors, including the privatisation of Sweden’s welfare system which has led to worse services in deprived areas. Probably both things are true. When countries take in large amounts of immigration, their generous welfare systems can become stressed. Sweden didn't balance the…

It's largely the result of an ideological deadlock, where legitimate logistical concerns about immigration and integration were lumped up with islamophobia and racism. Immigration was also seen as desirable in order to address the demographic crisis and low birth rates. This in turn had the ironic side-effect of cementing a sort of structural racism where all these immigrants showed up and were given at best estate h…

This needs to be upvoted. This is exactly what I've noticed across Europe. It feels like there's a glass ceiling outside of the arts and maybe politics.

It doesn't feel like there are role models there like Satya Nadella, Jerry Yang, Alex Padilla, or Obama.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#243

Post by FirmwareBurner »

oblio wrote: post #223
nickdothutton wrote: post #136

I’ve watched this story grow over the last decades or so. There is no gang problem, its just a conspiracy theory/propaganda. There is a gang problem but it’s overstated. There is a serious gang problem. There is a serious gang problem but it’s bikers. There is a serious gang problem, OK, it’s not bikers. There is a serious gang problem, it’s immigrants and immigrant descended Swedes, but it’s Sweden’s fault for not i…

What are the next phases?

Fascists and populists get more popular with voters.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#244

Post by TheGuyWhoCodes »

bigbillheck wrote: post #231
threeseed wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sort of posts invite this sort of people. And if you look at many of those posting they are either very recently created accounts or rarely contribute.

I looked at a bunch and found many of them were established HN users with four-digit karma.

it's just a way to wishy-washy other people opinions because they disagree with what they have to say. I personally don't like these kind of discussions in HN, most are personal opinions and rarely backed up by statistics or official sources.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#245

Post by Gibbon1 »

KomoD wrote: post #118
alephnerd wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Sweden absolutely can be much stricter with background checks, in my experience in Scandinavia, y'all are racist jerks. I'm a brown guy who's grown up in North America their entire life, and day-to-day conversations with people there suck. There absolutely seems to be a mentality that if you don't fit a specific trope you can't be Swedish. No amount of token representation in Scandinavian TV will change that. T…

> Honestly, despite all the issues the US has - managing diversity is definitely not one of those. You're kidding, right...? And we're all racist just because of some people you encountered?

The US mostly does not have a systematic problem with how emigrants are treated. It's completely normal for people to emigrate to the US, become a citizen and be completely accepted as such. The US does however have a particular problem with systematic ill treatment of the descendants of slaves. The key word is systematic. People as everywhere are free to be dicks to other people.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#246

Post by screye »

whearyou wrote: post #27

I suspect anyone who wants to address the elephant in the room here will have to choose between accepting support from semi-fascist types or getting cancelled

Not sure why it is so controversial.

* A region with instability, poverty and agrarian-tribo-rural-economy will imprint emergent traits onto the local culture.

* Long ossified culture cannot be shed quickly even in the best of conditions

* Agrarian tribal cultural practices are incompatible with hyper-liberal secular society. Integration is the only option.

* Integration is hard. Even more so when it is optional, gentle and approached with ignorant naivete.

Of course things went wrong. The Swedish drank American kool-aid. Like America, they naively tried to claim that their national identity is not an ethnic identity. They set out to prove themselves better than the US by taking in large populations of refugees and showing how they could do the America model better. That's where they got it completely wrong. The US took centuries to decouple its cultural identity from its prevailing-ethnic identity. (by successfully secularizing Protestantism.) The US also heavily vets its immigrants (unlike Sweden) and places the most oppressive integration-force-field second only to France. The air you breathe (Media), the carrot (The American dream) and the stick (the English language) all perfectly align to facilitate integration of the 2nd generation born into the US.

Swedish is an ethno-cultural identity. If you can't start with accepting that, then ofc the grand immigration plan was going to fail.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#247

Post by mrkeen »

arthur_sav wrote: post #210
mrkeen wrote: post #4

The title is all this site is willing to divulge to me. I just took the train into the city, had a burger & beer, and soon I'll train back home. I have zero worries about my safety. Anyway, the Right party pulled the balance of power from the Left and formed a centre/right coalition more than a year ago, because of all the bad people coming here and doing bad things. Weren't they going to fix this?

> I have zero worries about my safety. Ah nice. I guess there's no problem then.

There's relatively no problem.

The hamburger and beer was worse for my health than the gangs.

And it looks like tomorrow will be my first walk through snow for the season, so I'd better be cautious with that.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#248

Post by searealist »

zztop44 wrote: post #228
searealist wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden murder rate over time, it trends down until the mid 2010s: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/murder-homi...

That chart shows a steady rate up to 2005, a decline from 2005-2012 and then a rise back to the previous level between 2012 and 2015, and steady at the previous level since then. The big spike in Syrian immigration started around 2015-2016. Based on these numbers, I’d say these two factors (immigration and murder) appear to be unrelated.

You can't truly say it happened in 2012 because there is noise in the graph. Even when the long term trends are flat it goes up and down. It definitely happened _around_ the mid 2010s.

Here is Finland: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/FIN/finland/murder-hom...

And here is Norway: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NOR/norway/murder-homi...

They do not see this rise.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#249

Post by CrimsonCape »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #175
zztop44 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, isn’t it some kind of xenophobia? Saying that some “types” of outsiders are bad news full stop and should be kept outside else they’ll ruin the country is at least xenophobia adjacent, no matter how true you think it may be (probably unsurprisingly, I disagree on it being true, but that’s beside the point).

Doesn't being labeled a phobia strictly require the fear to be irrational in nature? Being afraid of an approaching train while standing on a train track isn't "train phobia", for example.

Phobia as a suffix has long been a non-sequitur smear. Unless you witness an armed robbery or gang activity, at which point the fear is justifiable.

Re: Gang crisis shaking Sweden

#250

Post by OfSanguineFire »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #164
silenced_trope wrote: post #102

> Those on the right largely blame immigration, which has added 2mn people to the country in recent decades. Those on the left point to social factors, including the privatisation of Sweden’s welfare system which has led to worse services in deprived areas. Probably both things are true. When countries take in large amounts of immigration, their generous welfare systems can become stressed. Sweden didn't balance the…

It's largely the result of an ideological deadlock, where legitimate logistical concerns about immigration and integration were lumped up with islamophobia and racism. Immigration was also seen as desirable in order to address the demographic crisis and low birth rates. This in turn had the ironic side-effect of cementing a sort of structural racism where all these immigrants showed up and were given at best estate h…

"Turns out very few people want to lead a shitty life doing menial jobs as a second class citizen. Isn't that weird?"

This describes the huge population of gastarbeiter in West Germany in the 1960s and 1970s, but I am not aware of any violent movements arising from them being unhappy with their lot. (The violence one does remember from those years was from a different demographic entirely.) It describes the modern UAE, where I am unaware of any gang phenomena. So, is this really all that is to blame for Sweden's problems?

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