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Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

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Re: Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

#191

Post by ajhurliman »

JohnFen wrote: post #104
dragonwriter wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A contract violation is not a violation of law. False; contract law is, as the name suggests, law, and there are legally established remedies for violations.

I think we may be running into the weeds of pedantry here, but here goes... (Speaking about how things are in the US. I don't know how they are elsewhere.) Contract law is about how to interpret and adjudicate contracts when there is a dispute between the parties in the contract. Nothing about that means that violating a contract, in and of itself, is illegal. You aren't going to suffer any criminal penalties for fai…

I think you’re using the word “illegal” in place of the word “criminal”

Re: Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

#192

Post by nirvdrum »

afandian wrote: post #182
nirvdrum wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They trust the certification body. Either you demonstrably know the electrical code or you don’t. And the union requires its members to have their licenses (save for apprentices — but they can wash out). Imagine how much time we could all save if an impartial body certified developers can do breadth first search or reverse strings. No need for all of those phone screen and first round interview questions.

I suppose that works for cookie-cutters where the union treats people as directly interchangeable. Maybe that applies to the majority of union jobs? I imagine that wouldn't extrapolate to careers where there's a component of soft skill, or hiring for potential?

I haven’t been involved with hiring with other industries, so I can’t really say. Given the way I’ve seen story points get distributed or people moved around after layoffs or a reorg at tech companies, I suspect many industries treat their employees as interchangeable, cookie-cutter or otherwise. For many skilled industries beyond software development we also rely on certification: Professional Engineers, medical doctors, pilots, etc.

Re: Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

#193

Post by FireBeyond »

bitshiftfaced wrote: post #181
FireBeyond wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The union is just butthurt that Tesla is not unionized and has happy workers. No. The union leadership didn't unilaterally decide to go on strike. Tesla's "happy workers" had to vote on it and decided to. So perhaps they're not as happy as you'd believe.

> The union leadership didn't unilaterally decide to go on strike. Tesla's "happy workers" had to vote on it and decided to. I can't find information that confirms this.

If this were the case, it would be newsworthy in itself. Every strike involves the membership voting on whether they will. I'd wager it is 99%+ of union bylaws. Additionally, it is in NLRB laws (I know this is in Sweden), but given that US union laws are some of the weaker in the developed world...

> the Smith-Connally Act requires 30-day notice of an intention to strike and required that the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) conduct a secret-ballot vote among the members of the bargaining unit on the major issues in bargaining prior to the strike.

Source: https://ecommons.cornell.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/bf5d...

A union leadership that says "We know you guys are totally happy but you know what, you have to strike anyway" is not leadership that stays long - even if they have the ability to unilaterally to do so.

You might see it as a cop out, but I'd argue the onus is on you to show that there was no vote, and workers are happy but having to strike anyway.

https://www.google.com/search?q=can+a+union+strike+without+a...

Re: Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

#194

Post by ponector »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #141
ponector wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that only a cartel of CEO could exist? In a regular employee-employer relations there is a big difference in negotiating power. Unions can mitigate that.

>In a regular employee-employer relations there is a big difference in negotiating power. Not necessarily, it depends on the state of the labor market. You remember a few years ago when the Valley was incredibly hot. Workers had a lot of negotiating power despite being non-unionized.

Some workers had.

Don't forget there are millions people on visa, in wait-list for green card. They always have been screwed.

Re: Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

#195

Post by bitshiftfaced »

FireBeyond wrote: post #193
bitshiftfaced wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The union leadership didn't unilaterally decide to go on strike. Tesla's "happy workers" had to vote on it and decided to. I can't find information that confirms this.

If this were the case, it would be newsworthy in itself. Every strike involves the membership voting on whether they will. I'd wager it is 99%+ of union bylaws. Additionally, it is in NLRB laws (I know this is in Sweden), but given that US union laws are some of the weaker in the developed world... > the Smith-Connally Act requires 30-day notice of an intention to strike and required that the National Labor Relations…

Yes, I understand there's usually a union vote before a strike. To clarify, you said, "Tesla's "happy workers" had to vote on it and decided to."

In a sense, that's probably true. But also maybe members of IF Metall at large voted on this, not just Tesla workers. After all, IF Metall stopped union members at other service shops than Tesla from working on Teslas. If so, then it could be that there indeed were "happy Tesla workers" who voted against it but must abide the union rules. We know there are service technicians working for Tesla who are unhappy with the strike ( https://www.na.se/2023-11-16/tesla-ar-den-basta-arbetsgivare... ).

Re: Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

#196

Post by LtWorf »

Scarblac wrote: post #186
legitster wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're enjoying a very labor-friendly market, but there are many examples in certain periods where unions locked up good, well-paying jobs behind exclusionary, nepotistic, and racist membership practices. So I would be happy to distinguish between a scab who is looking to make a quick buck and a strikebreaker who was never eligible for a union job in the first place. Depends on the context.

In Europe, typically, a collective bargaining agreement is agreed between the company and the unions - and then it applies to all workers, union member or not. But unions don't have any say in who gets a job. There is no such thing as a "union job".

in italy it's illegal to hire someone to replace a striking worker.

Re: Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

#198

Post by [deleted] »

FireBeyond wrote: post #159
arcticbull wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, even then. A contract violation is not a violation of law. My question is about it being illegal. Breach of contract is a violation of civil (but not criminal) law. It's illegal but it's not a crime. The question is more of enforceability and of compensation due, if any.

No, it's still not illegal. It is not a tort, which is a "civil wrong". Contract law is about breach of duty and remedies. You would not be forced to do the thing, generally, but may be required to compensate for the breach.

[deleted]

Re: Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

#199

Post by natch »

lutorm wrote: post #149
natch wrote: post #24

I can’t see this having much impact, because Sweden taxes the bejeezus out of Teslas putting them out of reach for most normal people.

Does it tax Teslas more than other vehicles? I sure seem to be seeing a lot of Teslas around...

I’m told that Sweden charges 25% VAT on not only the total price, but also on the total of freight charges, insurance, handling costs, and the 10% customs duty. That’s bonkers. So maybe not more than other imported cars but still crazy high. And also I could have outdated info but I understand they took away EV tax incentives in 2022.

If you’re seeing a lot of them it’s probably people who got a chance to try driving one. And who also realize the TCO over time makes up for the initial price.

Re: Swedish dockworkers are refusing to unload Teslas at ports in broad boycott move

#200

Post by surgical_fire »

ajhurliman wrote: post #185
surgical_fire wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> leached We should use this term more often against the corporations exploiting the workers. I am somewhat ambivalent towards unions - they can sometimes be a blessing or a curse to the workers. It really needs some regulation to ensure they serve the workers rather than serving the ones willing to play union politics. But I am not at all ambivalent on corporations. Their only mandate is profit, and they will exploi…

Somehow they never seem to have 500 years of payroll though

Of course they don't. The profits would be directed to those that own it.

I've worked for companies whose CEO had wealth that was way higher than 500x my yearly salary.

And even still, that was a misinterpretation on your part. It is a partial strike, only against Tesla. The dockworkers are still servicing other companies.

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