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Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

breakingdefense.com

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Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#141

Post by uticus »

HFguy wrote: post #122
uticus wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but 'Fallacy of Composition' is just a theory. (Disclaimer: I happen to disagree with it.) Ultimately the way these ideas about economic theory are approached is a lot more philosophical/religious-based (for the Atheists, please read that 'strong belief-based') and a lot less math based than some would be willing to admit. Honestly the math itself is usually statistical, which in turn is a lot more difficult t…

I would put aside statistics and whether we completely understand how the economy works (we don't). Just ask...are there are very fundamental differences between the finances of an individual and the government? There are. For starters, the government can simply print money and pay off debts. They can also choose, by their actions, to inflate away nominal liabilities. So then it is reasonable to consider that "being…

> may have different ramifications for the government than for an individual

I can only agree ramifications look different when an inappropriately narrow timespan is in focus. Thinking through history, what nations have been able to ultimately avoid ramifications from significant debt – the same sort of scenario that would in proportion cause ‘ramifications’ for individuals or businesses?

I can think of several historical instances where a nation having significant debt appeared to have no ‘ramifications’ early on but were unable to avoid the inevitable (and inenviable) outcomes.

I mean, even an individual may get deeply – horribly - in debt yet avoid ramifications for a time. But the bills will come due. No doubt a government is not the same thing as a business or an individual. But to dismiss government debt as playing by different rules than debt elsewhere is foolish.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#142

Post by mschuster91 »

curiousllama wrote: post #105
bogota wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start paying 250k a year for cobol developers and the problem fixes itself really fast. That or start migrating the system. Or more likely they keep using it until it completely breaks and then run to the government for a big handout to fix it. Easy to be irresponsible with other peoples money.

Cobol cowboys are a thing. They make substantially more than 250k. They’re competing with Wall St though, so hard to just pay more. Fed govt migrations are ALWAYS shitshows. The army alone has like 20 individual email services. The pentagon is to org complexity what big tech is to technical complexity. It’s turtles all the way down. This is literally one of the largest bureaucratic challenges on earth. There’s no sim…

The solution is simple: you need someone with absolute authority over everyone including the generals to lead the effort.

There's a time and place for democracy - but large IT projects are not. Do a thorough need analysis, compare with what's reasonably possible using COTS software, and adapt or discard what is not possible.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#143

Post by [deleted] »

MrMetlHed wrote: post #38

Worked with a guy ten years ago that would obsessively read these reports from the Pentagon. Here's a couple of his stories about the matter: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/pentagon/ and https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-mari... (very old and I apologize for my horrific javascript at the time.) It sounds like nothing has changed. Relevant to this crowd, maybe: "Most of the Cobol code the P…

[deleted]

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#144

Post by TimedToasts »

DougWebb wrote: post #31
Mistletoe wrote: post #3

Can anyone explain to me why it is awful for a person to live in debt but it is okay for the federal government to do so? I've never understood this in the least, other than the "kick the can down the road, America superpower backed by military blah, blah, blah" very weak argument. History is full of the carnage of failed empires that had this same idea. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN 32 trillion in debt…

I'm hardly an expert, but I think "government debt" and "government investment" are accounted for the same way, but only the former is a problem. If the government sells bonds/T-bills (eg acquires debt) and uses that to improve the country in a way that benefits the citizens and encourages population and economic growth, then its worth doing. If the government uses the money only to pay interest on existing debt, or…

> The attacks directly on the national debt are a political strawman, meant to distract from the real issues about where revenue comes from and how it is spent.

No, I assure you that those of us concerned about the national debt are actually concerned about it.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#145

Post by mschuster91 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #104

The US Department of Defense was not audited until six years ago, when it began a project to make their organization auditable. From the start, it was expected to take longer than six years: You are looking at a potential new job. A large company wants you to lead a project on their audits. Here is the situation: They are large and complex - on a different order of magnitude, possibly the largest, most complex organi…

Give me the complete and utter authority, Congress off of my neck for four years and I will.

The problem is not technical, it's the immeasurable amounts of tiny personal fiefdoms established by the countless layers of middle management. You won't get rid of these without someone who has been publicly given the political backing to end the career of anyone resisting change. And that includes the Congress members which are on speed dial in some people's phones.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#146

Post by docandrew »

ebiester wrote: post #116
uticus wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, devil's advocate would point out COBOL in 60s was written with a lot more focus on lasting in general. They didn't largely have the same general attitude of 'we iterate quickly with our script kiddies' as is prevalent today. Not that all software from then was wonderful. Or that COBOL magically guarantees great code. But, on the flip side, you can't say the code base isn't battle-hardened (to various liter…

I can build you a team using today's (quality: average B2B startup) programmers and today's methodologies that will write software for 40 years. It will just cost twice as much as the team that iterates quickly. It will cost more because I will spend more money on business analysis up front. I will spend more money writing automated tests. Most importantly, I will maintain my own toolchain and libraries or pay someon…

I wonder though whether the up-front costs incurred by your team would eventually be outweighed by the long-term costs of the quick team.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#147

Post by dustingetz »

ebiester wrote: post #116
uticus wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, devil's advocate would point out COBOL in 60s was written with a lot more focus on lasting in general. They didn't largely have the same general attitude of 'we iterate quickly with our script kiddies' as is prevalent today. Not that all software from then was wonderful. Or that COBOL magically guarantees great code. But, on the flip side, you can't say the code base isn't battle-hardened (to various liter…

I can build you a team using today's (quality: average B2B startup) programmers and today's methodologies that will write software for 40 years. It will just cost twice as much as the team that iterates quickly. It will cost more because I will spend more money on business analysis up front. I will spend more money writing automated tests. Most importantly, I will maintain my own toolchain and libraries or pay someon…

ha! you wouldn’t even be permitted to bid the project!

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#148

Post by px43 »

btbuildem wrote: post #123

Pardon me if this is too simplistic, but wouldn't cutting back the budget begin to instil some fiscal responsibility into an organization? Conducting an audit seems like just another expenditure in a climate of obscene overabundance of resources that encourages spending more and more.

I'm pretty sure they would blame the cuts for their continued lack of action.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#149

Post by wolverine876 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #145
wolverine876 wrote: post #104

The US Department of Defense was not audited until six years ago, when it began a project to make their organization auditable. From the start, it was expected to take longer than six years: You are looking at a potential new job. A large company wants you to lead a project on their audits. Here is the situation: They are large and complex - on a different order of magnitude, possibly the largest, most complex organi…

Give me the complete and utter authority, Congress off of my neck for four years and I will. The problem is not technical, it's the immeasurable amounts of tiny personal fiefdoms established by the countless layers of middle management. You won't get rid of these without someone who has been publicly given the political backing to end the career of anyone resisting change. And that includes the Congress members which…

Your analysis of the problems is interesting. Do you work in DoD?

IME such internal politics is unavoidable in large organizations. Nobody likes it but it's the ocean in which everyone must swim. You can alter it to some degree, but there's no way for a structure that large to work without it. How do you manage million(s?) of people without middle management?

Also, it's not Meta. It's an organization that is responsible for life and death of hundreds of millions or billions, and national and global security, so control is essential. As a simple example, you can't lose track of the grenade launchers or nuclear weapons and have them end up in the wrong hands.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#150

Post by evancox100 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #136
HideousKojima wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most explanations I've seen boil down to to "The US (or any other sovereign nation with control over their own currency) can print their way out of debt, it's literally impossible for the US to default." This ignores the devastating economic effects that printing such a huge amount of currency would cause (likely comparable to the effects of simply defaulting) and ignores the fact that sovereign nations with control…

> Most explanations I've seen boil down to to "The US (or any other sovereign nation with control over their own currency) can print their way out of debt, it's literally impossible for the US to default." Its impossible for the US to be forced to default. Its quite possible for the US to make a political choice to default, and it has come very close to doing so.

Also, not only is it possible, but many countries have in fact chosen to default on debt denominated in their own currency, rather than subject their citizens to wild inflation and/or break norms around reserve bank independence. So, it could happen even if US is not forced to, I agree.

For a starting point, see https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/BoC-B...

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