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Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

breakingdefense.com

101–110 of 279 posts

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#101
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equally wild is when "fiscal conservatives" complain about spending, it's only on social programs they disagree with. Fraud and/or waste should be a subject of concern regardless of the program that experiences it.

I wouldn't pin this on any particular party or ideology. Both major parties in the USA support dumping infinite unaccountable money into the military. It's one of the few things they agree on.

There are a fair number of dissenters on this within the Democratic Party.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eisenhower warned this would be a thing and here we are, it's a thing. The best we will ever get is the illusion of spending being under control. It's wild, but whenever a big change occurs there's always smart folks who knew what was going to happen and exactly called it out. Usually as a "ok guys be careful cause X could happen" and X inevitably does.

When did Eisenhower warn about failed audits, or something like them?

He warned about the military industrial complex swallowing up funds which could be better used for schools or to fulfill other public services.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't they have caps and levels for federal employee salaries? I agree that raising the salary would decrease the issues. I think that they'd need exceptions to account for these increases though.

Yes, but not for contractors. Most software sustainment ultimately ends up in the hands of contractors with government supervision in the form of program offices. Not all, though, many programs are also "organic", primarily or fully staffed by government employees and managed by government employees.

> Yes, but not for contractors.

Sure, but it’s not like the consulting firms are paying their “contractors” more, they just siphon up the difference for their shareholders.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#104
The US Department of Defense was not audited until six years ago, when it began a project to make their organization auditable. From the start, it was expected to take longer than six years:

You are looking at a potential new job. A large company wants you to lead a project on their audits. Here is the situation:

They are large and complex - on a different order of magnitude, possibly the largest, most complex organization in the world - with ~$4 trillion in assets (not market cap, but hard assets), and ~$900 billion annual budget, seven figures of employees, and operations spanning almost every activity, all over the world.

Such an organization is naturally divided into an incredibly large and complex org chart that maybe nobody really comprehends. Among all the entities on that chart are an incredible array of financial and asset tracking systems, computerized and manual, from new back to possibly WWII.

Your boss says that procurement is the most important thing to audit: An unusually large part of that $900 billion budget is the world's largest procurement budget and operation, with an endless list of vendors of every size and shape, from the world's largest companies - some whose core function is milking your organization without crossing legal redlines - to the tailor for West Point uniforms. And we were hoping you wouldn't ask, but we're afraid the budget and operation is decentralized across all/most of those entities in that org chart [edit: per commenter with actual knowledge, "the budget is somewhat centralized; it's just the execution that's decentralized".]

We'll need you to stitch all that together so we can audit it.

Who is providing executive support for this project? Well, very few in our organization, from the leadership down, really want it - they all see it as a distraction and source of trouble, possibly risk to their missions and careers. It was imposed on us. Also, the project will be the target of politics (including from a certain highly aggressive party in Congress), talking heads, and general public Internet attacks no matter what you do. Everyone sees you as a useful whipping post.

Do you take the job?

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#105
post #43

Worked with a guy ten years ago that would obsessively read these reports from the Pentagon. Here's a couple of his stories about the matter: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/pentagon/ and https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-mari... (very old and I apologize for my horrific javascript at the time.) It sounds like nothing has changed. Relevant to this crowd, maybe: "Most of the Cobol code the P…

Start paying 250k a year for cobol developers and the problem fixes itself really fast. That or start migrating the system. Or more likely they keep using it until it completely breaks and then run to the government for a big handout to fix it. Easy to be irresponsible with other peoples money.

Cobol cowboys are a thing. They make substantially more than 250k. They’re competing with Wall St though, so hard to just pay more.

Fed govt migrations are ALWAYS shitshows. The army alone has like 20 individual email services. The pentagon is to org complexity what big tech is to technical complexity. It’s turtles all the way down.

This is literally one of the largest bureaucratic challenges on earth. There’s no simple fixes

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#106
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start paying 250k a year for cobol developers and the problem fixes itself really fast. That or start migrating the system. Or more likely they keep using it until it completely breaks and then run to the government for a big handout to fix it. Easy to be irresponsible with other peoples money.

Starting pay for cobol in finance was around 350k last time I glanced. Nobody wants to rewrite a working system which will likely be much more expensive than finding one person to maintain the project.

With rewrite comes uncertainty and risk too, how many new bugs compared to code that works for decades?

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, let me use that excuse with the IRS and this how it works.

IRS exists to give those organizations money, so they’re more of a client and you’re more of a product.

Not quite. The money is the product of the IRS, you and I are the raw materials from which the money is produced.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#108
post #44

Worked with a guy ten years ago that would obsessively read these reports from the Pentagon. Here's a couple of his stories about the matter: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/pentagon/ and https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-mari... (very old and I apologize for my horrific javascript at the time.) It sounds like nothing has changed. Relevant to this crowd, maybe: "Most of the Cobol code the P…

Of course, devil's advocate would point out COBOL in 60s was written with a lot more focus on lasting in general. They didn't largely have the same general attitude of 'we iterate quickly with our script kiddies' as is prevalent today. Not that all software from then was wonderful. Or that COBOL magically guarantees great code. But, on the flip side, you can't say the code base isn't battle-hardened (to various liter…

Also throwing out there that COBOL was a language designed by the DOD specifically for managing it's bureaucracy.

It was a naval research project headed by Admiral Grace Hopper to program with words rather than formulas like earlier "high-level" "autocoders", enabling secretaries to transfer their business logic into computers. It actually intentionally has a lot of the same structure as a recipe, hoping that this would allow easier uptake by secretaries.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#109

Just to provide a ground-level insider perspective: We've been doing things in the name of "audit readiness" for a decade, and I just... don't get it. It has translated to a lot of asinine things like 1. Making sure that everyone's marriage certificates and kids' birth certificates are on-file, to root out maybe the one person in 10,000 who is erroneously getting paid an extra $200 per month for certain entitlements.…

All of that sounds like bog standard kinds of stuff that we and every other private company have to go through during our annual audits. I don't totally understand why these things are so burdensome to DoD personnel that they can't pass an audit. I would have been fired a long time ago if our company regularly failed audits over this kind of stuff.

Re: Pentagon fails audit for sixth year in a row

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incentives only work on low-skilled labor that is quantifiable. Eg. more money for flipping more burgers. It is not a settled science paying people a lot more will automagically solve problems. People crave Autonomy, Mastery & Purpose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbR2V1UeB_A What is definitely going to happen is you will attract the cowboys who have convinced themselves and can convince you to pay top dollar. The…

250k is not top dollar, it is average for experienced engineers.

250k is not top dollar for programmers, but it is top dollar in absolute terms. The point is that you don't incentivize better work by paying top dollar. Taking a mediocre developer and paying them more doesn't make them a better developer or even motivate them to become better.

It can attract people who are already good software developers absolutely, but the second point being made is that you also attract a lot of charlatans as well and so just throwing more money at the problem isn't exactly a great solution.

You need a solid culture to go with the money.

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