280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#231

Post by bryan_w » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

thegrim22 wrote: post #148

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

Remember when 20 years ago if anybody had doubts with the way things were heading we were told "there's no war on cars you conspiracy theorist, nobody's going to come for your cars you conspiracy theorist"? After 20 years they've made enough progress shaping the narrative that they no longer need to lie and hide their agenda they can just put it in the open.

I remember 20 years ago when they would say,"They hate our way of life" and think it had to do with religion or something, but I've recently come to realize that they meant the sentiment that GGP poster is talking about.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#232

Post by FredPret » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

cedws wrote: post #150

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

People are selfish and DGAF. They will continue to buy the latest and biggest Range Rovers and Ford trucks (pedestrian death machines) to take their kids to school because they desperately need to signal how well off they are. Cars are a disgustingly polluting outlet for people to show off. IMO we should be banning big cars, possibly even legislating new cars are no bigger than a Japanese "Kei" car. Speed restriction…

[flagged]

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#233

Post by gemstones » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

concordDance wrote: post #206

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

> The only problem that self-driving cars will ever solve is where to put VC money in a zero interest rate world. We've had freight trains and mass transit for centuries. They solve stress from a 30 minute daily commute. Public transport is never door to door and there are always changeovers and cancellations, while self driving cars on demand can be door to door and is far less dependant on whether there's a labour…

In my walkable neighborhood you know how this problem is solved?

The same way it was solved for centuries, high foot traffic incentivized a small grocer to pop up within walking distance. People in the neighborhood generally take jobs in the neighborhood, because there is high foot traffic, so there are jobs. Even doctors and nurses can get in on that, because it’s dense enough that a hospital is easy walking or biking distance, and their jobs are 100% not remote-friendly.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#234

Post by Moldoteck » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #192

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

> We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe That's incredible! Now show us some evidence.

Evidence like total cost of car infra vs taxes that ppl pay? Evidence that low density areas are subsidized by high density? All this info is freely available online. Difference is US can afford to be in debt, other countries - not so much

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#235

Post by nfriedly » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

My wife and I got an electric cargo bike with seating on the back for both kids this summer, and we love it. We jokingly call it our "mini van" and we've put ~170 miles on it, many of which would have been (gas) car trips otherwise.

Initially I pedaled a non-electric bike when all four of us wanted to go somewhere, but after a month or so we got a second (non-cargo) ebike.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#236

Post by dghlsakjg » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

nicoburns wrote: post #139

r00fus wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest frustration with bikes here in the US is the lack of security in high traffic areas. The fact that law enforcement doesn't seem to care about stolen bikes is a huge hurdle in my desire to bike to the store, leave alone paying thousands for a decent e-bike that I'd be even more worried about. I say this as an avid cyclist.

You should be able to get bike insurance. I pay £7/month to insure mine, which is lot cheaper than car insurance!

This is much less common in the US. So much so, that I have never heard of bike only general theft insurance. Here is the top hit for "US bike insurance" https://velosurance.com/road-bike-insurance/. In this case theft coverage is only extended to "secure locations".

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#237

Post by ProllyInfamous » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

DanTheManPR wrote: post #199

ProllyInfamous wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Link (to REI gen 1.2 ebike): rei.com/product/190640/co-op-cycles-generation-e12-electric-bike How fast'll this lil'baby go, for a fat 250lb'er like me?

It's a class 1, so it will assist up to 20mph. I typically cruise at around 15mph on my own (I'm in a similar weight class as a rider). For getting around my town, trips are not much longer than my car.

>assist up to 20mph (I'm in a similar [250lb] weight class as a rider)

So, how does it do on the occassional hills of a Chattanooga (e.g.)?

I'm about to visit my local store, which has one in stock, available today.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#238

Post by ZeroGravitas » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #146

ben0x539 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> probably honestly just providing free swaps There has to be a way to do the subsidizing thing that doesn't pay people who have a car to continue having a car, over people who haven't had a car and/or will stop having one...

I like this point, my mind immediately goes to "swap your ICE for an EV or an e-bike and $20k". I honestly think that deal is so good you'd see car theft spike. Maybe that's fine? We're in wild times haha.

Some cities introducing low emissions zones have done exactly this for poorer residents with older ICE cars. They get cash bonuses plus mass transit passes, vouchers for car shares etc..

Annex 1 of this document lists and links to various things that are in place in various cities around the world:

https://cleancitiescampaign.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/W...

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#239

Post by davidw » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

ubermonkey wrote: post #202

davidw wrote: post #21

I do almost all the grocery shopping for our family of 4 with a Rad Runner Plus with a large basket and bag. I love that bike. Even as someone pretty comfortable getting around on a 'regular' bike, having that extra power just makes it a really easy choice for more trips compared to the car. If it's hot out, it is so much nicer to hop on the bike and get an instant breeze compared to a hot stuffy car. If it's cold ou…

>If it's hot out, it is so much nicer to hop on the bike and get an instant breeze compared to a hot stuffy car. I feel like this indicates you do not live in a very hot & humid place. That sounds wonderful, to be sure, but in Houston summer a 1.5 mile trip to the grocery store on any kind of ebike would definitely require a change of clothes & a shower once done.

I feel this indicates you do not understand how an eBike functions.

You can get on one and simply turn the throttle or set the pedal assist to the max, and poof instant breeze with no effort. It is cooler than just standing there.

I lived in northern Italy for a while so I get 'hot and humid' although I'm sure it's another level in Houston.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#240

Post by brugidou » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

cornholio wrote: post #185

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

There is a little something that's missing from the analysis above: what people actually want. And what many people want, across many cultures once they reach a certain level of wealth, is the suburban home: low density living in isolated housing units set in a park like environment with ample greenery. Just look at almost any billionaire's mansion and you will see this pattern which becomes an aspiration for the mid…

There are plenty of dense cities around the world where I'm sure the owners of apartments in the (walkable) center would have enough money to buy a house/McMansion in a nice suburb.

And some do. But plenty don't. And building dense walkable cities with nice public transportation works very well and does not make these cities less attractive as far as I can tell.