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280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

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Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#161

Post by ItsMonkk »

trashface wrote: post #110

I've seen a lot of these on my local walking path. Which is exactly that - a narrow, paved walking path, in a park. Sometimes they will use their horn to alert peds walking they are passing - which is like, a car horn, because they need that for roads. I've never been "horned" but I've heard it and its not pleasant. Other times they just blow right by no warning. And unlike walkers or bikers, I almost never see them…

Completely agree.

This form of transportation needs it's own infrastructure. We need wider dedicated paths for this much higher efficient form of transportation that can carry many more people than car lanes can. Like in the Netherlands the Unites States needs to build an entirely separate bike path network so that these bikes can stop being ping-ponged between getting killed on the roads and slightly annoying pedestrians.

Every single person that converts from driving a car to riding an e-bike is one less person creating traffic. If there's anything cars hate more than pedestrians, hate more than bikes, it's other drivers. This will be a huge win for drivers.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#162

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

c22 wrote: post #10
Shatnerz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you defining efficiency here? Is walking really more efficient than cycling? I would put walking as the least efficient manual powered methods mentioned. Aside: I used to unicycle to work, and I have to say that it was both fantastic and much faster than walking while on a 27.5" wheel.

Bicycles are like 98% in terms of distance/effort so even when you factor in the manufacture/materials it seems like it's pretty hard to improve on. When you account for calorie transport it's possible the e-bike comes out on top, especially if charged from a local renewable electricity source. []: https://pedalchile.com/blog/cycling-vs-walking

at a micro level that's probably true, but from a public policy perspective, I'm willing to bet that regular bikes effect to increase fitness probably saves more carbon in the long run (healthcare is pretty calorie intensive).

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#163

Post by BlueTemplar »

landemva wrote: post #98
tofflos wrote: post #4

"So what’s the best solution? You might think switching to an electric vehicle is the natural step. In fact, for short trips, an electric bike or moped might be better for you – and for the planet." Also in fact, electric bikes and mopeds are electric vehicles.

> electric bikes and mopeds are electric vehicles. At USA federal level, which applies to federal lands and federal funding like 'rec paths' on municipal lands, ebikes are bicycles. They are not vehicles and not motorcycles. https://usbr.gov/recreation/publications/ebikes.pdf A vehicle requires significantly different licensing, and typically registration + insurance policy + driver licensing. What location are you i…

That they have a very weird definition of what a «vehicle» is, is part of the problem : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#164

Post by uoaei »

cogman10 wrote: post #115
uoaei wrote: post #26

It's good that the batteries are many times smaller than electric cars and trucks. I still have a problem with the accounting being focused on what the consumer directly experiences rather than the full lifecycle of the vehicle (manufacturing, logistics of vehicle and spare parts, and disposal) but I don't think it changes the conclusions much except maybe a minor edit to the ranking by kilometer-people per ton of CO…

20k miles in 5 years of ownership? That's well below average mileage (13k miles for 1 year is average). But further, if you want to talk about lifecycle, then why not consider a used Model S (or other ev) with 20k miles? It's not like EVs suddenly explode and need to be junked after 20k miles. The CO2 payoff period for an EV is around 25k miles, after that every mile driven on an EV ends up being less emissions wise…

> That's well below average mileage

Hence the emphasis here and in other comments about finding ways to use cars less. I diverted an entire vehicle from the dump rather than buying new and requiring additional CO2 emissions in that production process. It suits my lifestyle well. I could have bought a used EV but this car was free to me (after cost of spare parts) and I learned a lot about how to work on cars getting it up and running again. Plus sometimes I'll need to tow stuff.

Regarding payoff: My research says 5-8 years on average (12k miles per year) after accounting for production and emissions (generation for EV, gas for ICE), so I'm curious to know where you get your data.

> 300 or 500k miles is more than possible with today's EVs.

I'd like to see empirical studies on this but I suspect the sample size of EVs with that kind of mileage is too small at this point.

It's well known that EV batteries degrade faster than expected, aside from early year Prius hybrid and later Leaf batteries which seem to be holding up well for some reason. So even if the car lasts, you may have replaced the battery multiple times already.

None of this even accounts for microplastic production from tire and road wear, which goes as the fourth power of the vehicle mass. EVs obviously on the losing side of that vs bicycles, ebikes, even small ICEs.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#165

Post by jordanbeiber »

nicoburns wrote: post #139
r00fus wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest frustration with bikes here in the US is the lack of security in high traffic areas. The fact that law enforcement doesn't seem to care about stolen bikes is a huge hurdle in my desire to bike to the store, leave alone paying thousands for a decent e-bike that I'd be even more worried about. I say this as an avid cyclist.

You should be able to get bike insurance. I pay £7/month to insure mine, which is lot cheaper than car insurance!

Bike will get stolen anyway which is really annoying no matter the insurance. Not saying bike isn’t preferred to car, it’s just something I always consider.

I’ve got a bike AND a car, I still take the car on certain trips where the bike would make more sense logistically because it feels like 50/50 it’ll get stolen.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#166

Post by wtp1saac »

wtp1saac wrote: post #122
johnea wrote: post #3

I'm not really sure where in the US people live that makes them think transportation can be replaced by a bike. I live in San Diego, the climate is great, but there is no way a person can travel any farther than their neighborhood on a bike. The main impediment at this point is the outrageous price of EVs in the US. In China cheap EVs are readily available, trade policies are preventing their import into the US. Bike…

I also live in San Diego, and have gone between Pacific Beach, La Jolla, Clairemont, Mission Valley, Downtown, and even as far as La Mesa or National City via e-bike (sometimes also using the trolley / light rail). Is it convenient? No. Is it outright impossible? Absolutely not. Work can, should, and is being done by the city to improve bike safety, and that’s a crucial factor that should be supported more. e-bikes a…

also, Pacific Beach, La Jolla, UTC, Downtown/Gaslamp, Hillcrest/North Park are all pretty dense neighborhoods - so I suspect despite our major flaws, we have the capability to improve car alternatives pretty well. Much better than a lot of places with zero dense areas.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#167

Post by ben0x539 »

camgunz wrote: post #146
ben0x539 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> probably honestly just providing free swaps There has to be a way to do the subsidizing thing that doesn't pay people who have a car to continue having a car, over people who haven't had a car and/or will stop having one...

I like this point, my mind immediately goes to "swap your ICE for an EV or an e-bike and $20k". I honestly think that deal is so good you'd see car theft spike. Maybe that's fine? We're in wild times haha.

Admittedly I drove a pretty worthless car, but when I moved to a denser city and stopped driving, something like "swap your car for a lifetime public transportation pass" would have been really, really tempting, too.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#168

Post by Rebelgecko »

aftbit wrote: post #75
thelastgallon wrote: post #2

We don't need a 4000 lb vehicle to move a ~200 lb person. In order of efficiency: (1) Walk (2) Unicycle, roller skate, scooter (no battery, very little material) (2) Bike (3) Electric bike (and all forms of newfangled electric: escooters, segways) (4) Electric motorbike or scooter (5) Mass transit (can be public/private) transportation: Electric trains (6) Mass transit (can be public/private) transportation: Electric…

Certainly in the Bay it's pretty easy to get by with no car at all - just rent or borrow one if you want to take a trip to Tahoe every once in a while. If you go deeper into the country though, there are many places where car ownership is nearly mandatory, especially for people who can't WFH. EVs are pretty close to being able to replace ICE cars around here, but still can't match the range, cost, or longevity of an…

Yeah probably. Every EV comes with an 8+ year battery warranty, and it seems pretty rare to actually use it. No one I know has.

From anecdotes I've seen online, the only people who experience serious serious range degradation are atypical users (eg a taxi with 500k miles that exclusively uses fast charging) or owners of cars that don't have any thermal management for the battery (e.g. Nissan Leaf).

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#169

Post by paddy_m »

trashface wrote: post #110

I've seen a lot of these on my local walking path. Which is exactly that - a narrow, paved walking path, in a park. Sometimes they will use their horn to alert peds walking they are passing - which is like, a car horn, because they need that for roads. I've never been "horned" but I've heard it and its not pleasant. Other times they just blow right by no warning. And unlike walkers or bikers, I almost never see them…

That is rude behavior from those two wheeled users. If you honestly look at the dangers and attitudes involved I think you will find that drivers of cars are a much bigger problem.

In a large portion of cases where a bike is using pedestrian infrastructure, or going the wrong way on a one way street, it is because the alternative would be more dangerous.

It is unpleasant to be buzzed by a two wheeler, that is inconsiderate full stop. However the actual consequences of a collision are much much less severe. The fastest e-bikes go around 20-28mph, and mostly travel slower than that. A heavy ebike + rider weighing in at 350lbs at 28mph has an energy of 1.2437e+4 J, a 3500 pound car moving at 20mph has an energy of 6.3454e+4 J, 6 times as much. Cars regularly go much much faster around pedestrians. Bottom line, you'll break a bone from a nasty bike collision, the car driver will kill you. However drivers of cars aren't held accountable.

We dedicate so much of the US built environment to cars, for their movement, and free storage. Look at how wide car lanes are... encouraging speeding (despite what the speed limit signs say). Look at how entitled car owners are that they think its fair for them to store their private property on public space for no charge. If we gave a small percentage of the space dedicated to cars for bikes, bike use would flourish because it's safer to ride a bike. Given that most trips are less than 3 miles, its also quicker to get around on a bike, especially an ebike than a car.

[1] https://www.1728.org/energy.htm

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#170

Post by BlueTemplar »

julienreszka wrote: post #102

Have you seen the picture with the 2 children plus one adult on one bike? Make me really uncomfortable I immediately imagine how they risk to be crushed by a truck.

Why would there be any more risk than if they were instead walking on the road ?
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