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Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

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Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#261

Post by eviks »

torstenvl wrote: post #191
eviks wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP doesn't make this absurd claim (search is how you discover things, it can't be the opposite)

Forgive me, but you must have only skimmed the OP. It is quite explicit. > [Search] kinda works when you generally know what you need or how a feature you want could be called. But really not when this is your first rodeo.

That's the sentence I thought you meant, but you're just reading it wrong. This doesn't support your radical statement. "General knowledge of what you wantl is perfectly fine and doesn't block discoverability, that's also how you discover a lot of things on the web

It's also wrong, for example, you can discover all the file operations by typing in "file" in the search box even if it's your first rodeo

Also, search box can list all the commands as some commands palettes do in other apps, so you can just scroll to discover 100% of listed commands. It can also show categories, that's, for example, how I discover 100% of commands for some plugin by typing its name and reading the list of commands in the search results

Btw, this problem doesn't go away with the menu (like mentioned in another thread): it's hard to discover by looking through a huge nested list, especially when this list is poorly organized like in Gimp, and incomplete, and not context dependent

So no, search is on the same side of discoverability, and the op doesn't claim otherwise, that's your mistaken interpretation

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#262

Post by eviks »

akasakahakada wrote: post #256
eviks wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP doesn't make this absurd claim (search is how you discover things, it can't be the opposite)

>>> search is how you discover things So you mean that I should loop through [a-zA-Z0-9]* to search which name is defined so that I can use that function? What pills do you take, I want them.

Take a sugar pill and use the rush to use at least one modern app with a command palette, you should hopefully understand the nonsense of your a-z claim before the effects wear off

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#263

Post by eviks »

ColonelPhantom wrote: post #220
eviks wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how is discoverability 100% if you - can't search - don't have 100% functionality

GIMP does have search, just hit / and you can find any action. The problem with search and discoverability is that search requires input from me, whereas discoverability means that the program explicitly offers its features to me. With search, I would never discover some handy new feature I wouldn't think of myself, or something that is named differently than I expect. Hunting through a menu, while not optimal, allow…

I meant search in the menu itself like Mac does

The menu doesn't resolve these issues: if you don't know that yank is copy, seeing it in the catalogue won't help much, especially if instead of the usual cut/yank/paste that could give you a hint, you have cut/paste is in some "destructive edits" menu, and yank is elsewhere

And you can very well not have a command in the menu, after all, coding to have a command automatically dumped in a global list is easier that remembering to add it manually to some menu category

And the input to search can be blank: you'll get the same catalogue with the same categories like in the menu (watch the video, the popup search has all the menu categories), so there is almost no difference, so there is nothing magical 1000% discoverability in this menu design

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#264

Post by DonHopkins »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #252
prmoustache wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. They just only recently found the time to migrate to GTK3. The last thing they need is people who have no wish to use their program or contribute to yell at clouds and insult their work without moving a finger themselves.

I think there's value is stating the truth, even if it hurts someone's feelings. It's not intended as an insult, but if people feel that way, maybe that's their problem, not mine.

The one worst thing in the universe that you can do to piss off the GIMP developers is to tell them it should be more like Photoshop. It's like telling RMS that he should develop Open Software for Linux, instead of Free Software for GNU/Linux.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#265

Post by eviks »

ColonelPhantom wrote: post #220
eviks wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how is discoverability 100% if you - can't search - don't have 100% functionality

GIMP does have search, just hit / and you can find any action. The problem with search and discoverability is that search requires input from me, whereas discoverability means that the program explicitly offers its features to me. With search, I would never discover some handy new feature I wouldn't think of myself, or something that is named differently than I expect. Hunting through a menu, while not optimal, allow…

You're right, sorry got confused myself

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#266

Post by pbhjpbhj »

epcoa wrote: post #112
zelphirkalt wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying you are necessarily wrong about Gimp possibly being able to copy some of the good ideas from Photoshop. However, you basically confirmed what the GP said. If you suggest to put your usual Photoshop user in front of Gimp, without prior experience, then they are bound to walk into unexpected design decisions. Just like a Gimp user would, trying to find things in Photoshop.

Confirming what the GP said? This is all misdirection. Bottom line the GIMP UI/UX is garbage. There are extremely few people that have used a variety of image editing tools and claim GIMP is actually better. That’s all that matters really. This isn’t some rhetorical exercise.

I don't do graphic design any more, but I started with GIMP - when I was first able to try Photoshop (pre GIMP redesign) it was awful, nothing made sense, nothing was where it should be. In contrast, when I first used Corel Draw it seemed intuitive.

Just like using a Mac after having been a PC user; or being forced back to MS Windows after using Linux/KDE for a couple of decades.

I used to use Inkscape heavily, but having not used it for a few years, I go back and the UI has changed, similar experience; I feel lost when I should feel capable.

Photoshop was one of the first applications that I noticed using the 'give it free to college students to capture the market' technique. That works so well because it takes a couple of years for for you to adopt the software as an extension of your way of thinking - changing application means a productivity loss, and a feeling of incompetence, and no professional wants that unless they can clearly see an ultimate gain.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#267

Post by prmoustache »

fsckboy wrote: post #260
prmoustache wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are contradicting yourself. If it is your only choice, it means it is usable. Is it without fault, no. Usable yes.

the way I used to crop photos they moved/broke, so now I have mypaint installed so I can use it for cropping. Then I switch back to gimp. It's used, but not usable, a bit like a used car.

That analogy doesn't really work.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#268

Post by pbhjpbhj »

eviks wrote: post #95
torstenvl wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Search is the opposite of discoverability for all the reasons covered in this thread and in the OP.

The OP doesn't make this absurd claim (search is how you discover things, it can't be the opposite)

Search is how you find things you know are there.

Discoverability is the measure of how well an application presents features to you that you didn't necessarily know were there.

A menu may be a list of features, when you open the menu you discover those features.

A search box is a box. It shows no features. Search results might show features but those features might also not relate at all to the task you're doing, which means they're out of context. That's extremely poor discoverability. You can find all the features, you can't discover them.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#269

Post by Cockbrand »

jonhohle wrote: post #231
Hammershaft wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac OS is chock full of undiscoverable keybinds that perform functionality that would be useful for people of all skill levels. Moreso then Windows or popular Linux Distros, in my opinion.

What is frustrating to me, as a long time user, is that OS X used to come with books that would cover what was new.theblast oneni can remember was from 2008 or so and by that time they became leaflets with the major new features. I’m sure I miss dozen of things with each yearly release now if I didn’t catch it during a keynote or stumble across it somewhere on the web.

Apple not doing their homework here, definitely. What I do to substitute is to read the in-depth review of every new Apple OS (not just macOS, but also the others) on Ars Technica. They are usually published a few days after the x.0.0 release, and they cover pretty much everything that’s new or changed.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#270

Post by DonHopkins »

bestouff wrote: post #12
capableweb wrote: post #3

If Blender could radically update their UI and UX after 25 years of the initial conception, I feel like any (FOSS) project could do it too, no matter how many options and technical details the software has.

Blender has something else. Loads of money compared to Gimp.

Blender EARNED every cent of its loads of money be being RESPONSIVE TO ITS USERS.
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