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Sad clown paradox

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Re: Sad clown paradox

#111

Post by wvh »

stuartjohnson12 wrote: post #59
josephg wrote: post #57

I did a clowning masterclass in France a few months ago. (That was a whole, wild experience that I’ll be haunted by for years). While I was there I realised I’ve been operating under a certain kind of dumb philosophy my whole life without realising it. The philosophy is something like this: “I believe if I’m “good” enough, nobody will reject me for being “bad” and people will like me.” And fill in whatever you want f…

I've reflected long and hard on the same pattern of thinking in myself. Despite lots of downsides, it's been a hard thing to part with. I think rooting my self-worth in competence is the only reason I've been able to achieve anything remotely worthwhile through a learning disability which affects focus and concentration. It's a great way to summon determination. The downside of this way of thinking is that it ties on…

> I think rooting my self-worth in competence is the only reason I've been able to achieve anything remotely worthwhile through a learning disability which affects focus and concentration. It's a great way to summon determination.

This echoes what I'm discovering the hard way in my own life: to have learned to force oneself through grit and determination and be successful and self-confident in those aspects of life where that grit is a major contributor (work, sport, empirical accomplishments), only to notice that interpersonal relationships and inner self struggle with self-worth, connection, compassion and empathy, especially towards one-self. The fight for competence and some form of perfection become the battle cry leading into abject loneliness.

Maybe this is part of many men's struggle to not end up at the bottom of the rat race, inadvertently failing to tend to inner wounds and needs in the process.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#112

Post by iamcasen »

"A study conducted by Fisher found humour-orientated individuals likely to identify their mothers as demanding, unsympathetic and distant. They were seen as avoiding the nurturant role, commonly falling on the father to fulfil this role for the family.[21] "

Wow I didn't expect to read a wikipedia page written explicitly about my life today. Except in my case, my father didn't nurture either.

I never thought of my tendency towards humor as a tool for disarming family conflict, but it feels very accurate

Re: Sad clown paradox

#113

Post by sevagh »

wvh wrote: post #111
stuartjohnson12 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've reflected long and hard on the same pattern of thinking in myself. Despite lots of downsides, it's been a hard thing to part with. I think rooting my self-worth in competence is the only reason I've been able to achieve anything remotely worthwhile through a learning disability which affects focus and concentration. It's a great way to summon determination. The downside of this way of thinking is that it ties on…

> I think rooting my self-worth in competence is the only reason I've been able to achieve anything remotely worthwhile through a learning disability which affects focus and concentration. It's a great way to summon determination. This echoes what I'm discovering the hard way in my own life: to have learned to force oneself through grit and determination and be successful and self-confident in those aspects of life w…

In this thread I feel like I'm among my people.

This year is the one where I've been reflecting. Over the past N years of being focused on self-improvement and perfectionism and a self-evaluation/grind/progress loop in quantifiable fields (code, research, combat sports, exercise), in an ugly twist, led to sort of entitlement or an implicit expectation of rewards from the interpersonal domain.

Echoing exactly what others above me have said, "if I'm good enough, do xyz well enough, people will have no choice but to like me and love me."

Turns out that the parts of _myself_ I admire when it comes to my pursuit of "things" are not at all what people like about me.

Things, you can pursue - if you want to get good at C++, C++ has no choice in the matter, right? It's up to your own grit and determination. C++ can't reject you if you learn it well enough.

People? People like each other for unknowable, unmeasurable reasons and I need to understand more of how, not just that interpersonal is "out of my hands", but specifically treating interpersonal relationships as "things to improve on" is counterproductive, pushes it farther away.

Have you ever heard the expression "if you stop chasing things so hard, you'll get them?" When it comes to things, bullshit; the best in their field are the ones who chase it the hardest.

But maybe when it comes to people, it's actually true...

Re: Sad clown paradox

#114

Post by aatd86 »

lazide wrote: post #101
aatd86 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about someone who starts acting classes as a kid and naturally turns toward comedy? Then again I understand that being compelled to trigger something in someone all the time (laughter) can be pretty demanding. That's also an internal work of the mind and how to deal with one's thoughts and emotions, it doesn't have to be so stressful.

It's not just demanding, it's pretty anxiety inducing as the comedian has no direct control over if the audience will find it funny or not! It's basically the opposite of Stoicism, for instance. Their happiness/success depends on being able to make other people happy/laugh, which... yikes. Do you have any examples of anyone who has done so long term? Looking at the list of professional comedians, I'm not seeing any o…

Stand up comedians have pretty long careers.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#115

Post by josephg »

teaearlgraycold wrote: post #92
josephg wrote: post #57

I did a clowning masterclass in France a few months ago. (That was a whole, wild experience that I’ll be haunted by for years). While I was there I realised I’ve been operating under a certain kind of dumb philosophy my whole life without realising it. The philosophy is something like this: “I believe if I’m “good” enough, nobody will reject me for being “bad” and people will like me.” And fill in whatever you want f…

> “I believe if I’m “good” enough, nobody will reject me for being “bad” and people will like me.” My philosophy is different. If I know my values are where they should be and I live in accordance with them then it does not matter if people like my actions or not. Judgments slide right off. It's an impenetrable armor.

I hear that. I would have said something very similar a few years ago.

But now, I think it’s healthy to have our armour penetrated by the world. To be seen. To be vulnerable. To fail and have it fall apart and be able to weep.

As far as we know, we will die. And so with everyone we know and love. I don’t want impenetrable emotional armor. I want to, sometimes, sob uncontrollably. Feeling our feelings fully is the only path through life that is truly present with the reality of it all. Being impenetrable is too close to being numb.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#116

Post by josephg »

no_wizard wrote: post #72
josephg wrote: post #57

I did a clowning masterclass in France a few months ago. (That was a whole, wild experience that I’ll be haunted by for years). While I was there I realised I’ve been operating under a certain kind of dumb philosophy my whole life without realising it. The philosophy is something like this: “I believe if I’m “good” enough, nobody will reject me for being “bad” and people will like me.” And fill in whatever you want f…

I can't seem to resist the urge of asking, what was haunting about it?

The process of learning clowning - at least where I went - was a process of getting up on stage, again and again, and being made vulnerable to the audience and to our own inadequacies. Which is a nice way of saying that the instructors were low key abusive. They encouraged us in the audience to yell “money back!” when the performers were boring us. Or the teachers would give feedback like (direct quotes): “I didn’t understand why women want to date other women until I saw you on stage. You are so unlovable that I understand abandoning men completely.”. “Do you not think he looks like a tub of yoghurt trying to dance?”. “This one is a cancer on the stage.” And so on. A few days after clown school my partner and I were chatting to a pair of American sisters from an army family on a bus. The older one had served. Before we mentioned clown school she said we had the same haunted look people had right out of basic training.

It was definitely abusive. But we’re also definitely looser for it. 1 month of class and my social anxiety is basically gone. It feels a bit like I have an opportunity to relearn how I want to show up socially and on stage. It’s taken a few months to recover, but I’m so much more present with people. I don’t understand why, but I’m really not sure we could have learned what we learned without feedback like that. I’ve done improv comedy classes for years. But clowning at Gaulier melted so much of my bullshit. We spent a month being seen. And then told, honestly, brutally and repeatedly what people see when they look at us. Once you get over the shock of it, there’s a joy in that. A game. But it’s been months and I still haven’t quite put myself back together again yet.

If anything, saying the experience was haunting is a massive understatement. For good and ill, that class will be with me until the day I die.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#117

Post by josephg »

moralestapia wrote: post #107
josephg wrote: post #57

I did a clowning masterclass in France a few months ago. (That was a whole, wild experience that I’ll be haunted by for years). While I was there I realised I’ve been operating under a certain kind of dumb philosophy my whole life without realising it. The philosophy is something like this: “I believe if I’m “good” enough, nobody will reject me for being “bad” and people will like me.” And fill in whatever you want f…

>We don’t like people who are perfect. We like people for their flaws. Also wrong, though. But I'm glad you're in some sort of path to self improvement :D.

Yeah, but anything that can be said with words will always be a bit wrong. “The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.” and all that.

How would you fix it?

Re: Sad clown paradox

#118

Post by 2devnull »

passion__desire wrote: post #3
dgfitz wrote: post #2

Boy does this ring true. I’ll hafta talk to my therapist about it, wonder how widely known it is.

I think this is similar to mistaken belief like there is link between "bipolar disorder and artistic ability".Kay Redfield Jamison proposes such a thesis. There is substantial number of artists who don't have bipolar as well large number of bipolar people who don't have artistic ability

On average everyone is the same. In reality everyone is very different. Science deals with averages. Believing in averages rather than one’s experience goes oft awry.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#119

Post by teaearlgraycold »

josephg wrote: post #115
teaearlgraycold wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “I believe if I’m “good” enough, nobody will reject me for being “bad” and people will like me.” My philosophy is different. If I know my values are where they should be and I live in accordance with them then it does not matter if people like my actions or not. Judgments slide right off. It's an impenetrable armor.

I hear that. I would have said something very similar a few years ago. But now, I think it’s healthy to have our armour penetrated by the world. To be seen. To be vulnerable. To fail and have it fall apart and be able to weep. As far as we know, we will die. And so with everyone we know and love. I don’t want impenetrable emotional armor. I want to, sometimes, sob uncontrollably. Feeling our feelings fully is the onl…

I'm not saying you should become an emotionless robot. I'm saying you should build a strong foundation and know where to go from there. People will question you along the way. Consider their opinions but always reserve the agency to move your foundation. They don't do that just by scaring you.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#120

Post by passion__desire »

2devnull wrote: post #118
passion__desire wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is similar to mistaken belief like there is link between "bipolar disorder and artistic ability".Kay Redfield Jamison proposes such a thesis. There is substantial number of artists who don't have bipolar as well large number of bipolar people who don't have artistic ability

On average everyone is the same. In reality everyone is very different. Science deals with averages. Believing in averages rather than one’s experience goes oft awry.

If the link were to be true I would believe the more bipolar you are, the more creative you should be. But we know it becomes debilitating.
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