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One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

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Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#301

Having suffered from severe depression for over forty years, this reminds me of when I was 17, 18, etc. and suddenly discovered that if I stayed up for two days, the problem went away. So I knew this a very long time ago; but it always seemed to me that, besides smoking, this was just about one of the worst habits you could develop. By my mid-twenties, I had stopped.

Try the carnivore diet for 30 days. Eat eggs, beef, butter, plenty of salt, greek yoghurt, blueberries, walnuts. Drink only water (with a slice of lemon to break the monotony) and green tea.

Thank me later.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Therapy and SSRI:s worked much better in the end. How did you find that therapy helped you? I've started therapy a few months back and so far I can't find all that much value in it. They can't fix any of the stuff that is making me depressed, so it mostly feels like I'm mainly getting self help style advice.

In my experience, therapy mainly seems to be a validation and enablement service, on a very big scale. If this is something you're not necessarily seeking, you'll find therapy useless. But a lot of people want it, feel better because of it, and are therefore willing to fork over not insignificant sums to receive it.

This is not my experience at all. There are different types of therapy with wildly different approaches. What I worked with my therapist were recurring negative thought patterns, the associations and actionable concepts to get better, as well as going through my moderately traumatic family history. Part of that is self-validation, for sure. It helps to hear from a professional that the stuff you've gone through and feel has traumatized you, has been pretty bad and yes, probably has traumatized you. It does not cure the trauma, but naming a condition helps to recognize it's effects in ones thinking, which again helps in modifying ones thought patterns around it.

It's really hard to recognize and work on your own negative thought patterns. Like, you can't clean your face without a mirror. You can't comb your hair very well without a mirror. A good therapist in a way works as mirror to your thought, and helps you to clean that stuff up.

If one is moderately well functioning then there is nothing left to fix and yes, a therapy may seem somewhat useless.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#304
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Therapy and SSRI:s worked much better in the end. How did you find that therapy helped you? I've started therapy a few months back and so far I can't find all that much value in it. They can't fix any of the stuff that is making me depressed, so it mostly feels like I'm mainly getting self help style advice.

Therapy helped me when I did it in a group. Mostly in making me realize how good I had it. People that weren’t able to drive, weren’t able to go outside at all etc. I was just permanently afraid. What I gained from my other sessions was mostly a ‘get out of jail’ free card to unload all of my thoughts. You can only do that on your family and friends so many time before it starts to wear on them hearing the same thing…

This is one aspect of therapy for sure. Just discussing your bad stuff with someone who is a talented listener is a very important component IMO to get your stuff together.

And I concur. Don't use your friends or family as therapist as a default option. That stuff is hard. Unloading a bunch of negative emotions to a non-professional can be hurtfull and poisonous. There are of course situations were you can share bad stuff with someone but that's a case by case situation.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#305
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went several years more or less depressed and observed this phenomenon and utilized it. Night of Kerbal Space Program and next day the world is much better. For a while. Also, a lot fuzzier. And I couldn't code very well (just good enough to do my job so everyone was happy but I could feel slipping). Therapy and SSRI:s worked much better in the end. But, for sure in a pinch it does alleviate unbearable darkness. Th…

> Therapy and SSRI:s worked much better in the end. How did you find that therapy helped you? I've started therapy a few months back and so far I can't find all that much value in it. They can't fix any of the stuff that is making me depressed, so it mostly feels like I'm mainly getting self help style advice.

My therapy probably saved my life, and I'm not exaggerating.

While it may take a while to sync with your therapist, it's plausible the chemistry between you two just isn't working, or, that the style of therapy is not helpfull to you. There are tons of different types of therapies. Some try to figure out what makes you tick, and work through that. Others just try to analyze your current state and then simply offer actionable tactics to modify your current mood and thinking. I used the latter. Would have absolutely hated the former. But suitability seems to be really personal.

My therapist was purely interested in objective actionable items, negative thought patterns, underlying trauma, etc, and what strategies we could use to try to help me. These things are deeply personal and subjective, but similar issues come again and again between different people, and an experienced therapist can try many different things.

One aspect of depression feels that there are bunch of negative thought patterns and their strong negative associations, which feed eachother. A part of my healing was not giving energy to these things - letting them pass over me so to speak, and find ways to alleviate occasional bad spots (deep breathing etc). We worked with therapist with many of these things. Lots and lots of small actionable nudges.

"They can't fix any of the stuff that is making me depressed, "

I don't know your situation so I would not imagine trying to offer suggestions. I can tell what my bad stuff was though. My parents died, my wife became sick and unable to work and my son turned out to have really bad adjustment problems at school. More or less at the same time. And, I was fairly displeased with my job. That came on top of childhood trauma of parental alchoholism, depression and suecide attempts.

My therapist really could not fix any of that, nor did they try. What we worked instead was trying to give slight adjustments to my thinking and perception, lifestyle and relationships. Small nudges, here and there, over a long period, in combination with SSRI:s.

None of the issues have been fixed. None of them can be fixed. But at least for myself I can again find joy and happiness in a broken world. I truly hope the same for you.

I was really lucky finding a suitable therapist early on, but I understand finding suitable therapist can take some time. To my understanding ”therapist shopping” is a normal part of the process, and if you feel your therapist relationship is not working out right now, it might be a good idea to raise this topic with them.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried this once, Family Doctor actually ended up giving me a dose that was twice the maximum anyone is ever supposed to take. Thankfully the Pharmacist told me that was an extremely bad idea and he just gave me my normal dose and I continued on for a bit. After that was when I ended up cold turkey because I lost my doctor and psychiatrists during a big move and couldn't get a refill at any clinic in the new town. I…

2 years of recovery just sounds scary

At the time, very. In hindsight, nearly 10 years of being numb to the world was worse.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried this once, Family Doctor actually ended up giving me a dose that was twice the maximum anyone is ever supposed to take. Thankfully the Pharmacist told me that was an extremely bad idea and he just gave me my normal dose and I continued on for a bit. After that was when I ended up cold turkey because I lost my doctor and psychiatrists during a big move and couldn't get a refill at any clinic in the new town. I…

Those drugs you used contains benzodiazepine [1]. It's addictive and if used long, do more harm than helping. I'm glad you get rid of it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine

Thankfully I wasn’t on Benzos, but my mother has been and they definitey can do a lot more harm than good.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#308
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a side note for anyone reading: you can get an SSRI prescription from your GP (general practitioner i.e. normal doctor) you don’t need to go through a psychiatrist. This is especially true if you are at risk for withdrawal, they will want to prevent that.

My pharmacist can even prescribe a month’s supply if I’m running out. Stopping an SSRI cold turkey is a really bad idea.

Definitely a very bad idea. The first 2 or so weeks felt euphoric to me but after that it was pure hell for months and months.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#309
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SSRIs replaced older-generation antidepressants because they're similarly effective and much safer - that's not to say that they don't have side-effects, but they probably won't kill you. TCAs are extremely toxic in overdose (an obvious and serious shortcoming in patients with elevated suicide risk) and MAOIs come with a really difficult set of drug-drug interactions and dietary restrictions. We know from the data th…

I strongly agree with everything you say, but... > but I've always been slightly sceptical of claims about withdrawal effects of antidepressants. Even the manufacturers warn against discontinuation effects. See the "If you stop taking venlafaxine" paragraph here: https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/764/pil#gref The UK NICE has advice about stopping antidepressant meds: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng215 and…

Sorry, in hindsight my comment was unreasonably broad and unclear.

I think it's obviously true that someone might feel anywhere from "a bit weird" to "really quite unwell" for a couple of weeks after discontinuing an antidepressant. I don't know how effective GPs are in communicating that, but you're right that it's there in the patient information leaflet.

What I don't see as particularly plausible are the extremely long withdrawal syndromes reportedly lasting many months or years, or the extremely prolonged tapering regimes that involve tiny fractional doses. I cannot conceive of any plausible biological mechanism for these symptoms, or a plausible mechanism by which a tiny fraction of a clinically relevant dose might alleviate them. Prolonged post-withdrawal effects are reasonably common with GABAergic drugs, but the mechanism and mode of action of these drugs is radically different.

If someone has been taking 20mg of escitalopram, it's perfectly sensible to step down to 10mg and perhaps 5mg over a few weeks to allow their serotonin system to upregulate without too much drama. If they're a year down the line, they're taking 0.2mg and they feel suicidal if they miss a dose, I don't think there's a biochemical explanation for their symptoms.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#310

Having suffered from severe depression for over forty years, this reminds me of when I was 17, 18, etc. and suddenly discovered that if I stayed up for two days, the problem went away. So I knew this a very long time ago; but it always seemed to me that, besides smoking, this was just about one of the worst habits you could develop. By my mid-twenties, I had stopped.

Try the carnivore diet for 30 days. Eat eggs, beef, butter, plenty of salt, greek yoghurt, blueberries, walnuts. Drink only water (with a slice of lemon to break the monotony) and green tea. Thank me later.

What you are describing is not a carnivore diet, not even paleo diet (yoghurt!).

To try carnivore elimination diet, you should eat nothing else than beef, salt and water for at least 30 days.

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