Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#221

Post by steveBK123 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #130

boxed wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> be associated with a feminist and anti-racist outlook. Well.. it's not at all clear that those things he mention has anything to do with anti-racism and feminism. In fact, it seems quite clear they are the opposite of that.

The implication is clearly that "woke" is an effete privileged liberal attack on the poor and oppressed. It's ridiculously transparent libertarian/conservative PR. As others have said - far more directly abusive and entitled privileged beliefs are endemic among the very rich. If they weren't they wouldn't spend so much time strike-breaking, stealing pay, flouting laws and regulations, buying politicians, and proselyt…

Sometimes one must examine the criticism of the "other side" rather than simply writing them off as "racist" or "heretic" (depending on the century).

It may turn out that there's some interesting points being made, and you almost walked into one yourself.

What if a lot of these luxury beliefs promulgated by the elite are really just conscience laundering / overt cover for all the bad things you point out they do covertly (strike breaking / bribery / fraud / etc)?

It's a thought worth examining and has non-zero merit.

Some of my trendiest, leftiest friends (hey and I vote all-dem, all the time myself) are actually far richer but come from family money. And many of them are less white/straight/male than me! And many of them have strongly ironic ideas about things..

Greta IG re-posting "climate change is an existential crisis", while owning big ICE SUVs and flying 10x/year. "Soak the rich" (because their dad bought their condo for them in cash and their lifestyle doesn't depend on the high income they believe should be taxed). SATs are racist (but THEIR kid got all the SAT prep / coaching / etc to ensure access to the best school). AOC good & "billionaires shouldn't exist", but happily spend summers crashing in their boarding school friends mansion whose father is a well known but politically quieter CEO.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#222

Post by danaris » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:23 PM UTC

JanSt wrote: post #132

indigo945 wrote: post #101

> When I was growing up in foster homes, or making minimum wage as a > dishwasher, or serving in the military, I never heard words like “cultural > appropriation” or “gendered” or “heteronormative.” > > Working class people could not tell you what these terms mean. But if you > visit an elite university, you’ll find plenty of affluent people who will > eagerly explain them to you. I figured out as soon as I saw the l…

cultural appropriation As a european, I just can't wrap my head around this. How is it racist if I like a food of an other culture so much I cook it? Or I like a hairstyle of different culture so I also want to wear it. Or clothes. Or making music. Or.... I mean, I admire all that stuff so much that I want it to be part of my life. How is this racist?

The term "cultural appropriation" has been widely misused and diluted by people who don't really understand it.

If I, a white man living in upstate NY, were to don Haudenosaunee ritual gear and record myself performing a traditional dance of theirs, that would be cultural appropriation. It refers to a dominant culture taking the trappings of a colonized or otherwise marginalized culture and using them for entertainment, for clout, or otherwise for our own purposes.

On the other hand, if I were to travel to Japan, stay at a ryokan (traditional Japanese inn), and wear the simple kimono they provide for guests, or go to a kimono rental shop and rent a kimono from them for the day, that would be cultural appreciation, because that is something that the Japanese offer openly as a way for foreigners to connect with and understand their culture.

In general, cooking and eating food of another culture in your own home cannot be cultural appropriation. (The only exception I can think of offhand is if the food is part of a closed religious practice of some sort.) Similarly with music—it's very unlikely to be cultural appropriation unless the music is part of a religious practice or being used disrespectfully. Hairstyles and clothing require a bit more nuance and can depend on the situation.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#223

Post by lupire » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

chancemehmu wrote: post #6

Reminds me of one of my favourite quotes by Huxley: "If you’re to do anything reasonable in this world, you must have a class of people who are secure, safe from public opinion, safe from poverty, leisured, not compelled to waste their time in the imbecile routines that go by the name of Honest Work. You must have a class of which the members can think and, within the obvious limits, do what they please. You must hav…

Benjamin Franklin made a similar argument about civilization being dependent on a strong middle class of financially secure business owners who could afford time to engage in politics.

The key difference is that Franklin's middle class wasn't interheted status.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#224

Post by littlestymaar » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

woooooo wrote: post #174

littlestymaar wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are the one missing the point: it's not that this post has a conservative bias (every text necessarily has these kinds of bias, and that's fine). The problem with this post is that it is only here as an argument against liberal ideas that he doesn't like, and as such it's entirely driven by bad faith. Then sure there may be some elements of truth sprinkled every now and then, but every piece of propaganda…

Maybe you could evaluate the truth of something on its own merit, rather than sorting into "liberal vs conservative" first and letting truth be secondary to allegiance.

It's not about liberal vs conservative sorting, there are bad faith argument being raised by all political side.

They are equally bad, no matter where they come from, and they do not deserve anyone's attention, especially when it comes from grifters who live from the the confirmation bias of their followers/patrons.

(I don't even fit in the American political segmentation anyway)

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#225

Post by TerryGrampl » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

zigman1 wrote: post #170

subjectsigma wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://youtu.be/lsw3pdpxf64?si=Nm9jNS9jeqR9eQA4

What are you trying to say? I can also cherry-pick one of numerous alt right people storming cities with guns and assault rifles, calling for violence.

The man in that video spent 30 years in prison for kidnap, torture, rape and attempted murder, and is threatening violence to women now he's been released.

He's says he's a woman. Would you find it acceptable for him to use a women's refuge, be incarcerated in a women's prison, undress himself in a women's changing room, and so on, based on his self-declaration of womanhood? If yes, then you'd be indulging in a luxury belief.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#226

Post by danaris » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

JanSt wrote: post #211

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cultural appropriation is related to colonialism and post-colonialism, its relation to racism as a concept is really a function of how racism relates to the other two fields. Of course many terms mutate in meaning.

I have a university degree and I know all the words but I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'd say colonialism - at least from a european perspective - has a lot more to do with subjugating the identity of the colonized. That's the opposite of "cultural appropriation".

Oh, no; it's absolutely part of it. Cultural appropriation involves the dominant culture taking practices (including things like clothing, music, dance, etc, especially if it's part of a religious practice) of a colonized or marginalized culture, removing them from their cultural context, and using them for their own purposes.

That's absolutely subjugating the identity of the colonized: it takes these parts of their identity and says "these are not yours; like everything else, they are ours, and we can do with them as we please."

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#227

Post by jocaal » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:27 PM UTC

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #202

stewx wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligence and knowledge are two different things. An uneducated person may be highly intelligent but have little knowledge.

ok - in that case: when I switched to a white collar job suddenly all the world's knowledge was unlocked in my brain, and I knew the meaning of all these terms that had heretofore been opaque to me.

The author addresses this in the text. He claims the wealthy have the time (And I will add access to resources like the internet and books) to spend on learning esoteric knowledge. From my N=1 experience, that seems to be true. I don't really get why that offends you. Is it really hard to believe that people in different social classes prioritize learning different things?

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#228

Post by lupire » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:27 PM UTC

hooverd wrote: post #47

logseman wrote: post #9

Given that working class rubes like myself who finished college in a place my man can't even find in a map are somehow able to know what “cultural appropriation” or “gendered” or “heteronormative” mean, and do that by the same means as everyone else (reading about it) I'm going to presume that the good man has a very peculiar understanding of what "elite" means.

Indeed, I studied in the engineering and not the gender department (we barely had liberal arts IMO), and I too learned how to read. Maybe the cultural elite, like starbucks baristas and people who work in HR.

I think you missed a word or few in there.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#229

Post by lupire » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #166

j7ake wrote: post #96

The fraction of people with luxury beliefs that also have to request vacation days to a manager is too high to be an exclusive upper class signal. Private jets, yachts, personal cooks and butlers are truer symbols of the upper class.

> Private jets, yachts, personal cooks and butlers are truer symbols of the upper class. Those are all signs of wealth; most classy people would actively avoid them, even if they're wealthy. I'm from the UK; I suspect that in the USA, it's easier to raise your social class by simply spending money. Here, social class by default is inherited. It's reinforced by where you went to school. Most people of high social clas…

"class" and "classy" are different words.

"class" is a social status. "classy" is a behavioral style.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#230

Post by JanSt » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #226

JanSt wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a university degree and I know all the words but I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'd say colonialism - at least from a european perspective - has a lot more to do with subjugating the identity of the colonized. That's the opposite of "cultural appropriation".

Oh, no; it's absolutely part of it. Cultural appropriation involves the dominant culture taking practices (including things like clothing, music, dance, etc, especially if it's part of a religious practice) of a colonized or marginalized culture, removing them from their cultural context, and using them for their own purposes. That's absolutely subjugating the identity of the colonized: it takes these parts of their…

As I said, the european/my german perspective does not see this - at least what I have learned. An essential motive of colonialism was the missionization and education of the "primitive, uncivilized race". The Germans saw it as their task to civilize the colonial population by introducing them to German culture and the Christian religion. Other colonial powers, such as Great Britain or France, also followed this ideological motive and tried to educate the "inferior race" in their sense.

Even if it would have been as you described: it would have nothing to do with me cooking african food because I love the taste. It's admiration, not theft.