Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#171

Post by joelegner » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 11:58 AM UTC

surrTurr wrote: post #114

On the point of success and the rich believing it is just luck whilst the working-class beliefs it's hard work: Maybe both is true. Becoming successful in working class jobs often *does* require hard work, whilst becoming successful in upper-class jobs depends more on other factors such as luck. For example, to become a great construction worker, you need physical strength, stamina, and a strong work ethic, as the jo…

I think this is the right view of success. Great success requires both talent and hard work.

It’s most obvious in domains like sports and music. I noticed that in my teens by watching Michael Jordan. He was great because he had a body seemingly made for basketball and spent the most time practicing.

How is it any different in medicine, tech, investing, engineering, business, etc.?

The talents are mental, so they are harder to see. The required combination of luck and hard work are the same.

A better world would be one where the successful recognize this and are grateful to be the recipients of life’s lottery winnings. They would try to help the unlucky rather than lord their success over them.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#172

Post by gizmo » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 12:00 PM UTC

RubberbandSoul wrote: post #160

gizmo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, reduce funding so police departments don't turn paramilitary. In the UK for instance most officers don't even carry guns.

Great. https://www.statista.com/statistics/288256/violent-crimes-in...

UK police didn't have guns in the early 2000s either. The rise in recorded violent crime can't be explained by something that hasn't changed. You're just trolling now.

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/trends-in-violent-crime/#....

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#173

Post by whelp_24 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 12:00 PM UTC

zigman1 wrote: post #137

TerryGrampl wrote: post #119

This reminds me of an interesting piece I read last month, which looks at one particular luxury belief that is especially divisive right now, and criticizes it with regards to class: https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/09/25/trans-the-new-ideol... Like those described in the article above, this is very much a middle-class movement whose proponents have seized the opportunity to sneer at working-class people as bigoted…

> seized the opportunity to sneer at working-class people as bigoted, stupid and reactionary This is incredibly ignorant view which does not understand the trauma someone can endure when not being allowed or experience not only discrimination, but physical abuse and threats for being who he or she feels is. I wonder if people said the same thing when screaming for equal rights or other things related to racism and ho…

The working class jobs are the most unionized ones. The unions also started with actual battles (wikipedia has examples since US history class often does not), from people with traditional values. I think the division is much more harmful that than you think.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#174

Post by woooooo » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 12:00 PM UTC

littlestymaar wrote: post #165

fieldcny wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in no way conservative, but I think you are missing the point. There are sets of liberal and conservative beliefs that are held by the wealthy and powerful that are detrimental to the powerless and poor. He cites the liberal set, maybe he is a conservative and that’s his bias or maybe because there is an inbuilt hypocrisy in some of them, ultimately it doesn’t matter because the point stands on its own and one s…

I think you are the one missing the point: it's not that this post has a conservative bias (every text necessarily has these kinds of bias, and that's fine). The problem with this post is that it is only here as an argument against liberal ideas that he doesn't like, and as such it's entirely driven by bad faith. Then sure there may be some elements of truth sprinkled every now and then, but every piece of propaganda…

Maybe you could evaluate the truth of something on its own merit, rather than sorting into "liberal vs conservative" first and letting truth be secondary to allegiance.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#175

Post by ModernMech » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 12:05 PM UTC

woooooo wrote: post #174

littlestymaar wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are the one missing the point: it's not that this post has a conservative bias (every text necessarily has these kinds of bias, and that's fine). The problem with this post is that it is only here as an argument against liberal ideas that he doesn't like, and as such it's entirely driven by bad faith. Then sure there may be some elements of truth sprinkled every now and then, but every piece of propaganda…

Maybe you could evaluate the truth of something on its own merit, rather than sorting into "liberal vs conservative" first and letting truth be secondary to allegiance.

Part of evaluating truth these days is figuring out what information is being left out by the author. It’s hard to figure out the merits of an argument when only one side is presented or info is being hidden.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#176

Post by woooooo » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 12:05 PM UTC

jyounker wrote: post #139

RubberbandSoul wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) Redefining words in order to win arguments. Nice. Defunding means exactly that. I know this because that is what happened to the police forces that were defunded. Not entirely defunded, but they ended up with less money in their budget. > the typical day-to-day work for a police officer doesn't require violence or the threat of violence Says who? Are you a cop? Do you have cops in th…

> Redefining words in order to win arguments. Nice. Defunding means exactly > that. I know this because that is what happened to the police forces that > were defunded. Not entirely defunded, but they ended up with less money > in their budget. The poster is not redefining the term. The "Defund The Police" movement has very specific and very well documented goals: Use police only for law-enforcement, and use speciali…

The movement existed for five seconds, had a really bad idea as their name, and now you're saying it was all a misunderstanding and they are really moderates?

Just take the L. The movement messed up.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#177

Post by j7ake » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 12:08 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #166

j7ake wrote: post #96

The fraction of people with luxury beliefs that also have to request vacation days to a manager is too high to be an exclusive upper class signal. Private jets, yachts, personal cooks and butlers are truer symbols of the upper class.

> Private jets, yachts, personal cooks and butlers are truer symbols of the upper class. Those are all signs of wealth; most classy people would actively avoid them, even if they're wealthy. I'm from the UK; I suspect that in the USA, it's easier to raise your social class by simply spending money. Here, social class by default is inherited. It's reinforced by where you went to school. Most people of high social clas…

Are you saying the upper class in UK eg the royal family actively avoids flying private and making their own breakfast and doing their own laundry? Or is the royal family not classy?

Would be happy to hear examples of upper class UK people who still do their own laundry and flies coach.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#178

Post by Loughla » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 12:08 PM UTC

justanother wrote: post #14

Starts off with an interesting premise and makes me think, hey, maybe I should re-examine my priors, let's see the evidence. And then the evidence turns out to be something about people who "make more than $100K," and goes on to assert that they "live in gated communities" and "can afford private security." In 2023, "making over 100K" just means that you're usually on-time with your monthly housing payment. Author ma…

Making over 100k in my part of the US is an exceedingly comfortable life with a massive 2 story home.

This is super dependent on where you live. You may need to step away from city centers for a little bit to see it.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#179

Post by gizmo » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 12:09 PM UTC

automatic6131 wrote: post #152

gizmo wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is pretty incendiary so I won't go through it point by point, but I'd like to emphasize the distinction between defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) and abolishing the police. Abolishing the police altogether is more of a utopian goal and very few people think society can function today without some kind of police. That said, the typical day-to-day work for a police officer doesn't require violence or the thr…

> I'd like to emphasize the distinction between defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) and abolishing the police You are playing the Motte and Bailey[1] tactic perfectly. You say that defunding means only "demilitarizing", which many people would probably agree with. But when put into practise, it's never that. I mean, you don't need to delve very far into academia or lefty twitter to find extremist people saying exactly th…

I would argue you find that kind of left wing extremist exclusively on twitter and at the fringes of academia. They have no power and are not taken very seriously.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#180

Post by zigman1 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 12:10 PM UTC

whelp_24 wrote: post #173

zigman1 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seized the opportunity to sneer at working-class people as bigoted, stupid and reactionary This is incredibly ignorant view which does not understand the trauma someone can endure when not being allowed or experience not only discrimination, but physical abuse and threats for being who he or she feels is. I wonder if people said the same thing when screaming for equal rights or other things related to racism and ho…

The working class jobs are the most unionized ones. The unions also started with actual battles (wikipedia has examples since US history class often does not), from people with traditional values. I think the division is much more harmful that than you think.

Sorry, I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say... Unions are type of collective fight in form of strikes and bargaining, against exploitation and are the main tool within the class war. Actual battles happened because the ruling class tries to prevent or forbid them. At the end it is a question of profit splitting not a question of pure existence for whom you are. I would go as far as to say one is the example of class war and the other is an example of fight against fascism.