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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#501

Post by kingofpandora »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #485
kingofpandora wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that an advisor to Natanyahu tweeted that the Al-Arabi Hospital was bombed by Israel because it was being used by Hamas. No, I'm not saying that the hospital was actually bombed by Israel; I'm saying that everything that Israel bombs is labelled with the "used by Hamas" tag as justification for what this really is. No one actually believes that all or even most of the buildings destroyed in this campaign was…

I believe that 99% of what they're bombing are known or very probably Hamas hot spots. They have no reason to kill regular Palestinians, but they are at war, and war is pretty fkng ugly. They have sat back for decades while Hamas lobbed rockets at them and then turn around and massacre 1400 people as if they were nothing. No I think this is pent-up and they are on a mission to end Hamas with prejudice, they are not o…

It's obviously your choice to believe this despite all the evidence to the contrary.

For me it just underlines how people need a flimsy excuse so they don't have to openly support killing civilians.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#502

Post by bawolff »

archagon wrote: post #472
bawolff wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is part of international laws and basic human rights that during the war you cannot demolish communication infrastructure, churches, mosques, hospitals, news agency offices, schools, civilian homes, etc. Umm you can if they are being used for military purposes.

If an entire city is held hostage by a terrorist ruling party, does that mean that you have carte blanche to raze the city and displace or eliminate its civilian population?

> If an entire city is held hostage by a terrorist ruling party

Many governments are dictatorships or autocratic. Some are democratic. I dont think it matters. You have the same responsibility to civilians regardless of the form of government.

> carte blanche to raze the city

Generally not. But you can certainly destroy buildings used for military purposes. Where this conflict falls on this scale is pretty unclear thus far.

> eliminate its civilian population

Definitely not. Israel has not done this.

> displace ... its civilian population?

Maybe. There are certain circumstances under the geneva convention where this is allowed, and it seems likely the criteria was met in this conflict. You of course have to let them back once the fighting has subsided.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#503

Post by bawolff »

pauldenton wrote: post #480
bawolff wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> indicate they are effectively trying to drive people out and force them to leave and move to other countries I mean, this is obviously untrue since there is no other country they can go to. Gaza shares a border with only israel and egypt and neither is letting anyone leave (a fucked up situation for the innocents caught in the middle)

If you really believe that Europe and America aren't going to receive any refugees from Gaza I have a bridge to sell you

Well they haven't thus far. Hard to predict the future, but as it stands the borders are closed.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#504

Post by invalidname »

hypefi wrote: post #425
victorbjorklund wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is 100% legal to bomb targets that have dual use (both civilian and military). That is why it is 100% legal for Ukraine to bomb the kerch bridge. It is a bridge used by both civilians and military.

Are you kidding me? are you comparing a bridge with a hospital full of people, doctors and patients

Israel didn't bomb a hospital, that was a misfire of their missile. Israel showed that a different hospital is actually used as a base of operations for the Hamas because they know Israel won't bomb it.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#505

Post by invalidname »

pxc wrote: post #494
archagon wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an entire city is held hostage by a terrorist ruling party, does that mean that you have carte blanche to raze the city and displace or eliminate its civilian population?

A terrorist ruling party that your intelligence agencies funded and armed, early on, and which your ruling party has 'propped up'¹ for decades as both a way to have a convenient enemy and to divide the Palestinian people so as to make impossible the 'two-state solution' that your government is nominally committed to, at that.

Israel is far from blameless in the rise of Hamas. Especially Benjamin Netanyahu who as an Israeli I would love to see go to trial for supporting Hamas (in addition to his other ongoing corruption charges).

Still, there are levels of blame and the current situation. The Palestinians in Gaza are held hostage by an evil organization that keeps escalating and using ceasefires to increase armaments. I would love it if Netanyahu would be out of office right now and someone "competent" were running things. But this is the position we're at.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#506

Post by invalidname »

justnotworthit wrote: post #471
invalidname wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also included offices for the Hamas and was a symbol of its power. That was the main motivation for removing it.

We can now say cutting off the internet is their goal: Israeli official says will fight Starlink’s deployment in Gaza The minister of communications has said Israel will “use all means at its disposal to fight” the use of Elon Musk’s Starlink to support connectivity for aid groups in Gaza. Posting on X, Shlomo Khari said if the Starlink satellite internet is deployed “Hamas will use it for terrorist activities”. “The…

Notice that it's the goal only on the moment of the armed invasion which happened only yesterday. The line goes through Israel and it could have cut that on day one.

Cutting communications before an invasion is pretty basic military strategy. Unfortunately, it also cuts civilian population off but as we asserted... The Hamas is embedded in civilian population and uses them as human shields. It steals fuel destined for hospitals and has made itself rich over the backs of the Palestinian people.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#507

Post by invalidname »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #484
invalidname wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also included offices for the Hamas and was a symbol of its power. That was the main motivation for removing it.

I mean their main objective is to decimate Hamas as an entity in Gaza, they know they'll never get all of them but destroying all their infrastructure and weapons (and other) caches along with their leadership is critical. I'm sure they know they'll never end the movement,but they can destroy nearly all their large scale capabilities.

There is a way to end the movement and that was what Rabin tried to do in 1992. The Oslo accord was about making peace with the more moderate PLO. The idea was that the Palestinian people themselves would reject the doctrine of the Hamas and get rid of it.

Personally I think it could have worked given time and more intelligence work but now it will be much harder. The Hamas controlled the school system in Gaza. I just watched a video of a bunch of kids, no older than mine. Cute as pie, telling the camera how horrible the Jews are and that they want to drive a car into them when they grow up. That nothing is more holy than to be a martyr for god. Pretty fucked up stuff.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#508

Post by bhouston »

YZF wrote: post #352
bhouston wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YZF wrote: > How can there be "most people in the know" when the Gaza strip is under the tight grip of Hamas? If you read the article is says that in past conflicts Gaza Health Ministry numbers were within 10% of Israel reported numbers. In the past there haven't been issues with the numbers being wrong. > Why are we even playing this numbers game in the first place? I am unsure. It is quite likely that there is a ma…

I agree it will get worse. The playbook is to use the number of casualties to create international pressure on Israel to stop. Then once Israel stops the Hamas is going to emerge from its tunnels and celebrate its win over Israel. Let's agree that no innocent civilian on any side deserves to die. I think the best hope for that is that Israel has some magical success in getting to the Hamas leadership and hostages in…

> EDIT: It's also theoretically possible that Hamas would surrender and/or free all the hostages. I think that's pretty unlikely but we'll see.

My best case would be that Hamas exchanges their hostages as they have many times before. Preferrable Hamas releases all the hostages, and in exchange the Hamas leadership (the top leadership, 100s maybe) gets safe passage to somewhere else - go to a Qatar or somewhere not directly adjacent. And then the PA takes over Gaza with international peacekeepers and we drive towards a 2-state solution aggressively.

We would need Netanyahu sidelined for that as well - that guy has long boosted Hamas just to weaken Palestinian moderates and has aggressively expanded the settlements as well as opposed multiple US presidents when the pushed for a solution.

Personally, I am a big fan of the Geneva Initiative as the outline of a 2-state solution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Initiative

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#509

Post by culi »

teleforce wrote: post #287

Guess which building first demolished to the ground by Israel military in Gaza at the beginning of the conflict? No price of getting the right answer, it's the Watan Tower building that hosted most of Gaza Internet Sevice Provider (ISP) companies Paltel and Jawwal and their infrastructure. It was also a hub for several international media outlets, including the Associated Press and Al Jazeera [1],[2],[3]. We are some…

Even before the full invasion, Israel's (illegal) blockade on Gaza made it so that _on average_ there was 11 hours of blackouts each day. The world has _already_ not been able to know what's happening in Gaza. Not to mention the fact that Israel (again, illegally) destroyed their seaport and airport and built a border completely surrounding Gaza and blocked movement across it

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#510

Post by hackerlight »

throwrqX wrote: post #466
hackerlight wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you want the right-wing zealots in power to eject themselves? I want the US to force their hand to stop the invasion. Then Netanyahu's reckoning will come with the Israeli population. Likud needs this invasion to happen to distract the population from accountability. But if the US forces them to not invade, that reckoning can come sooner. > What happens if Israel does what you say but are still suffering attacks…

There's no such thing as an "impenetrable DMZ" so I don't know why you bring that up. Even the most fortified borders can have gaping holes as the October 7 attack showed. The US can't force anything either. During the Yom Kippur War when the US was a lot more hesitant about giving aid the only result was Israel threatening to use nuclear weapons against the Arab armies.

> There's no such thing as an "impenetrable DMZ" so I don't know why you bring that up.

You know what I mean. I am obviously not claiming that a DMZ can be perfectly impenetrable. I'm talking about one that's actually manned, and one that is significantly better than what is currently in place, to the point that a repeat attack is sufficiently unrealistic.

> The US can't force anything either.

Yes they can. Israel relies on them for their security umbrella and trade relationships. US has an extreme amount of leverage, if only it would use it.

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