Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 610 posts

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#341

Post by YZF »

jacquesm wrote: post #303
YZF wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's extra context which is the suicide bombing campaign by Hamas after Rabin was murdered. That is the true cause of the collapse of the Oslo process and the shift in Israeli public opinion from the majority supporting a two state solution of some form to the the majority believing Israel can never co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs.

Yes, that's true, but that wasn't what killed Rabin. If Rabin had not been murdered I would have put a good chance on the Oslo process becoming ratified and that at least would have established some way of de-escalation. Just like in Northern Ireland: you need goodwill on both sides to make progress, regardless of what happened before. The fact that both of those conflicts are at the root religious conflicts is proba…

This is a tough one. I don't think it's anything like Northern Ireland.

Likely the only workable solution is a single state solution with some special protections for the Jewish people. Maybe a federation of some sorts. This is not going to happen in this generation. Given the demographics of the region I'm not sure it'll ever happen. Unfortunately the future looks bleak, more so for the Arabs, but really for everyone.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#342

Post by oa335 »

YZF wrote: post #328
tachyons wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Used double quotes because neither IDF nor Hamas are declared as terrorist organisation by UN. That doesn't the actions of these organisations though. If Israel can kill someone in Iran with targeted missile, they are capable of doing the same in Palestine as well. Instead of doing that, they are carpet bombing Palestine, and they are totally aware that only handful of "Hamas" members gets killed in their attack. The…

I would disagree that Israel is dehumanizing all Palestinians. Examples? I have heard the Hamas referred to as sub-human (I don't recall where). Unfortunately they are very human. De-humanizing is not genocide and genocide is not a reality. What it is is propaganda. But yes, Germans and Hitler did dehumanize the jews to support their genocide. How did we get to Iran? It's easier for Israeli intelligence to operate in…

> I would disagree that Israel is dehumanizing all Palestinians

This article has some examples. Many more on social media. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/16/the-la...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#343

Post by bluish29 »

invalidname wrote: post #338
bluish29 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you don't have a solid evidence that you can share and instead relying on "They wouldn't pick that as first major target if it wasn't " as some sort of evidence that you felt is enough to repeat the claim without even mentioning that there is no evidence available? I don't think you are being honest here.

I can probably find the Israeli paper article from the first day of the war but you said you won't believe it anyway. So what's the point? What evidence do you have that the Israeli intelligence was wrong in this case?

When people are asking for evidence. They are asking about hard evidence that prove the claim. The claim here that it was bombed because it contains hamas offices used for military purposes and this is why isreal bombed. Well isreal by your say have some evidence that it was the case. Did they provide this evidence?

The evidence here is not a press release of isreali government/military saying that they destroyed it because it was being used by hamas for military purposes. They can say whatever they want and you can do, but without providing evidence this becomes a lie.

Note that I am here talking about very specific case and claim. If you want to say hamas lie too that's fine but completely irrelevant in our context here.

We are talking about this specific claim and this specific claims because I don't want this to go in general direction.

And the burden of proof is on you not you. You claimed something and you should provide the evidence. Don't try to tweak things by redirecting the question

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#344

Post by invalidname »

enterprise_cog wrote: post #130
petertodd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What future would that be? A future where they stop killing Israeli's and slowly build up the trust to restore normal relations and trade. Gaza was given the chance when Israel decoccupied Gaza in 2005. They decided to vote in Hamas in a democratic election instead. > Gazan citizens do not have a say in much of anything, they're either combatants, captives or hostages depending on what your perspective from outside…

What if Israel stopped killing Palestinians and normalized relations with Gaza? Israel could choose a different path.

Israel tried that. The Hamas blew up (literally) the previous Oslo accord aiming at a Palestinian state. Israel also relaxed restrictions on Gaza and tried to normalize relations with the Hamas. The response was that it doesn't want that.

People need to separate the Palestinian people (most of which don't want a conflict) and the Hamas. The Palestinian people are sandwiched between the extremists and Israel. These things can't happen until the Hamas is eliminated which is what Israel is trying to do right now. I'm hopeful that this will end up as a "good thing" for the Palestinians and result in a Palestinian state.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#345

Post by invalidname »

bluish29 wrote: post #343
invalidname wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can probably find the Israeli paper article from the first day of the war but you said you won't believe it anyway. So what's the point? What evidence do you have that the Israeli intelligence was wrong in this case?

When people are asking for evidence. They are asking about hard evidence that prove the claim. The claim here that it was bombed because it contains hamas offices used for military purposes and this is why isreal bombed. Well isreal by your say have some evidence that it was the case. Did they provide this evidence? The evidence here is not a press release of isreali government/military saying that they destroyed it…

Again. I don't have that but you don't have the counter evidence that it didn't exist. Show me evidence of any bombing from any western country in any campaign ever...

I get that Israel should be held to a higher standard than the Hamas. But your specific attitude makes no sense. Intelligence information is internal, wartime bombings target decisions are privileged information.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#346

Post by orionsbelt »

solarpunk wrote: post #158
orionsbelt wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has given repeated warnings for the north of Gaza to evacuate south for the past two weeks while Gaza has had internet. In addition, they have dropped leaflets all over the are stating the same thing.

excuse my naivete, but if they're giving two week notice about bombings, why even waste the ordinance?

Hamas is operating out of a network of tunnels in northern Gaza. I’ve read there are 30k+ militants. Hamas wants a ground war in Gaza, they are not leaving. Rockets are still flying out of there every day.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#347

Post by YZF »

tachyons wrote: post #334
YZF wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we talking about the west bank or Gaza here? - It is true that some Palestinians in the west bank are treated very badly including taking over their water wells. There's a long story or a short story there. We have a right wing government in Israel that supports right wing settlers in the west bank and is trying to kill any hope of peace with Palestinians. - Israel occupied the west bank from Jordan in 1967. The…

Regarding PTSD, don't you think Palestinians are in much worse position? Even if you killed every single Hamas member, relatives of those who are murdered during this genocide will attempt revenge in future right? Or is starving everyone to death so that there won't be any vengeance is the strategy? When two neighbours, who genuinely believe that their neighbour will kill them if they get a chance, peace is hard and…

It's gonna take decades. The cynical take here is that Israel knows it'll be hated (I mean isn't it anyways) and it's going to take away the means of those people to execute on that hate.

What the UN secretary general said isn't helping because it's excusing the Oct 7 attack which is inexcusable. Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Israel's blockage of Gaza hasn't happened in a vacuum either. Should we trace back the conflict all the way to prehistoric times?

I don't think Israel is going to starve all Gazans to death. It's also not going to kill every single Hamas member. But yes, it will leave another layer of residue on top of this endless conflict.

If Israel stopped now the Hamas would celebrate it's victory, hold on to the hostages forever, or kill them and hold on to their bodies, and Hezbollah would be emboldened to do a repeat performance of this from the North (what exactly is the reason for Lebanese Shea or for Iran to fight Israel btw? Did Israel also steal their lands?). At least that's what this looks like to an Israeli.

I'm just watching this from the sidelines like everyone, how exactly do we stop causing more wounds?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#348

Post by jacquesm »

tachyons wrote: post #334
YZF wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we talking about the west bank or Gaza here? - It is true that some Palestinians in the west bank are treated very badly including taking over their water wells. There's a long story or a short story there. We have a right wing government in Israel that supports right wing settlers in the west bank and is trying to kill any hope of peace with Palestinians. - Israel occupied the west bank from Jordan in 1967. The…

Regarding PTSD, don't you think Palestinians are in much worse position? Even if you killed every single Hamas member, relatives of those who are murdered during this genocide will attempt revenge in future right? Or is starving everyone to death so that there won't be any vengeance is the strategy? When two neighbours, who genuinely believe that their neighbour will kill them if they get a chance, peace is hard and…

> peace is hard

When parties are in principle willing peace is hard enough but when hardliners on both sides use each and every opportunity to deepen the conflict peace is as good as impossible.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#349

Post by kingofpandora »

invalidname wrote: post #296
teleforce wrote: post #287

Guess which building first demolished to the ground by Israel military in Gaza at the beginning of the conflict? No price of getting the right answer, it's the Watan Tower building that hosted most of Gaza Internet Sevice Provider (ISP) companies Paltel and Jawwal and their infrastructure. It was also a hub for several international media outlets, including the Associated Press and Al Jazeera [1],[2],[3]. We are some…

It also included offices for the Hamas and was a symbol of its power. That was the main motivation for removing it.

Remember that an advisor to Natanyahu tweeted that the Al-Arabi Hospital was bombed by Israel because it was being used by Hamas.

No, I'm not saying that the hospital was actually bombed by Israel; I'm saying that everything that Israel bombs is labelled with the "used by Hamas" tag as justification for what this really is.

No one actually believes that all or even most of the buildings destroyed in this campaign was "used by Hamas" if you are being honest with yourself. It's obviously collective punishment and revenge with a little bit of show ("we dropped leaflets" or "we sent warnings by SMS") for those who need it in order to go to bed at night.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#350

Post by jacquesm »

YZF wrote: post #347
tachyons wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding PTSD, don't you think Palestinians are in much worse position? Even if you killed every single Hamas member, relatives of those who are murdered during this genocide will attempt revenge in future right? Or is starving everyone to death so that there won't be any vengeance is the strategy? When two neighbours, who genuinely believe that their neighbour will kill them if they get a chance, peace is hard and…

It's gonna take decades. The cynical take here is that Israel knows it'll be hated (I mean isn't it anyways) and it's going to take away the means of those people to execute on that hate. What the UN secretary general said isn't helping because it's excusing the Oct 7 attack which is inexcusable. Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Israel's blockage of Gaza hasn't happened in a vacuum either. Should we trace back the c…

> I'm just watching this from the sidelines like everyone, how exactly do we stop causing more wounds?

By focusing on that which can be influenced which is usually limited to your own side. Go back to the Oslo accords, enable a UN peacekeeping mission (with teeth) and abandon any territory settled. That should be a good start. Not that I even dream of the hardliners on either side thinking that is acceptable.

Post reply on HN