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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#351

Post by orionsbelt »

jacknews wrote: post #279
brucethemoose2 wrote: post #202

History suggests expunging determined, fortified, modern militants embedded in a civilian population never goes well. The expunger loses or gets a pyrrhic victory, even with a huge economic advantage. Honestly, however dire the need, I don't see what Israel is thinking. If Israel, the US, Europe, China and Russia all held hands and invaded the Gaza strip together, they still probably couldn't route out Hamas.

Exactly, and in fact they will just create more radicals, and push the existing ones to even more barbaric extremes. I'm starting to feel radical myself, and I have no connection at all to events, other than being able to spot a bully obviously about to carry out systematic barbarism in retribution.

Was the U.S. entering WW2 after Pearl Harbor just systematic barbarism in retribution?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#352

Post by YZF »

bhouston wrote: post #269
YZF wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can there be "most people in the know" when the Gaza strip is under the tight grip of Hamas? Israel has always published all the details of all causalities in all the conflicts, civilian and military. Hamas never did until this new list and has never broken the numbers by combatant vs. civilian. Who and how exactly verifies those numbers? Your link even says: "International groups, even some operating in Gaza, an…

YZF wrote: > How can there be "most people in the know" when the Gaza strip is under the tight grip of Hamas? If you read the article is says that in past conflicts Gaza Health Ministry numbers were within 10% of Israel reported numbers. In the past there haven't been issues with the numbers being wrong. > Why are we even playing this numbers game in the first place? I am unsure. It is quite likely that there is a ma…

I agree it will get worse. The playbook is to use the number of casualties to create international pressure on Israel to stop. Then once Israel stops the Hamas is going to emerge from its tunnels and celebrate its win over Israel.

Let's agree that no innocent civilian on any side deserves to die. I think the best hope for that is that Israel has some magical success in getting to the Hamas leadership and hostages in the tunnels under Gaza. Very unlikely that Israel will yield to international pressure at this point.

EDIT: It's also theoretically possible that Hamas would surrender and/or free all the hostages. I think that's pretty unlikely but we'll see.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#353

Post by drewbug01 »

invalidname wrote: post #259
solarpunk wrote: post #61

how does Israel give evacuation warnings if Palestinian telcos are offline?

The warnings were given for a while now. Unfortunately, the Hamas has set up roadblocks to prevent civilians from fleeing to the safe zone. They are using civilians (their own people and children) as human shields.

Is that true? I can only find news sources claiming that based only on information from the IDF, and those news sources don’t exactly seem neutral.

This smells odd to me.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#354

Post by jemmyw »

petertodd wrote: post #258
xerxesaa wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet this did not save Wael Al-Dahdouh's family. He followed every order and evacuated his family. His wife, kids, and grandchild were wiped out in an airstrike in a refugee camp no less. He handled it with immense maturity and dedication. He's back to work reporting on the war.

> And yet this did not save Wael Al-Dahdouh's family. As I have repeatedly said, in a war of this nature large numbers of Gazan civilians will inevitably die. As long as Israel eliminates Hamas, this is unavoidable. If Israel fails to eliminate Hamas, large numbers of Israeli's will be killed by Hamas in the future. Between those two options, obviously Israel is going to choose the option where Israli's don't get sla…

They would need to wipe out the entire population of Gaza then, because otherwise all their actions are going to do (doing) is create the next generation of Hamas.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#355

Post by invalidname »

kingofpandora wrote: post #349
invalidname wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also included offices for the Hamas and was a symbol of its power. That was the main motivation for removing it.

Remember that an advisor to Natanyahu tweeted that the Al-Arabi Hospital was bombed by Israel because it was being used by Hamas. No, I'm not saying that the hospital was actually bombed by Israel; I'm saying that everything that Israel bombs is labelled with the "used by Hamas" tag as justification for what this really is. No one actually believes that all or even most of the buildings destroyed in this campaign was…

I wouldn't count on anything coming from the circle of Netanyahu. He is the absolute worse. But Israeli mainstream press is generally better sourced.

Notice that Israel also used phone tracking to check that civilian population moved away from the target. No county that ran a campaign of this type in the past used such an approach to avoid civilian casualties.

I think the bombings are very problematic. But from current reports it seems the ground invasion will be worse in terms of casualties (on all fronts). So it seems like a lesser evil when a building goes down.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#356

Post by bluish29 »

invalidname wrote: post #345
bluish29 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people are asking for evidence. They are asking about hard evidence that prove the claim. The claim here that it was bombed because it contains hamas offices used for military purposes and this is why isreal bombed. Well isreal by your say have some evidence that it was the case. Did they provide this evidence? The evidence here is not a press release of isreali government/military saying that they destroyed it…

Again. I don't have that but you don't have the counter evidence that it didn't exist. Show me evidence of any bombing from any western country in any campaign ever... I get that Israel should be held to a higher standard than the Hamas. But your specific attitude makes no sense. Intelligence information is internal, wartime bombings target decisions are privileged information.

> I don't have that but you don't have the counter evidence that it didn't exist

This is not the problem, people who claim something have to provide the evidence if asked, you don't respond to them by re-directing the question and ask them for counter-proof. At least in the normal world. I don't know about you.

> I get that Israel should be held to a higher standard than the Hamas

Providing evidence to claims is now a higher standard? man you live in a wild world.

> But your specific attitude makes no sense. Intelligence information is internal, wartime bombings target decisions are privileged information

So they can attack and kill anyone and claim they were military targets, and when asked for evidence then they will not provide because it is internal? Do you know what claims without evidence can be considered, yes propaganda like the one you tried to spread in this comment which is our discussion context.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#357

Post by invalidname »

drewbug01 wrote: post #353
invalidname wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The warnings were given for a while now. Unfortunately, the Hamas has set up roadblocks to prevent civilians from fleeing to the safe zone. They are using civilians (their own people and children) as human shields.

Is that true? I can only find news sources claiming that based only on information from the IDF, and those news sources don’t exactly seem neutral. This smells odd to me.

I don't think anyone other than the IDF and the Hamas would have access to that information.

But a quick search found https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/hamas-preventing-gaza-r...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#358

Post by stavros »

jacquesm wrote: post #76
stavros wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has been able to keep some of its services online during Israel’s military response to Hamas’s attack. Looks clear-cut whose fault it is, everything was just peachy for everyone until Hamas just decided to attack out of the blue.

Except of course for those who ended up living in Gaza without that being their choice.

I'm afraid the sarcasm didn't come across well. The article makes it sound like Israel was just peacefully minding its business when Hamas attacked, forcing it to retaliate, which we all know is not the case.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#359

Post by jacquesm »

invalidname wrote: post #337
jacquesm wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. You are seeing a cause, I'm seeing a symptom. > Killing civilians while aiming at the Hamas is never "right". Not only is it not right: it strengthens Hamas and will result in more anti-Israel sentiment in the rest of the world. "Look at what you made me do" doesn't work on that level. > But letting the Hamas keep going is far worse than the alternative, it will embolden…

> > Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. > > You are seeing a cause, I'm seeing a symptom. Nonsense. There were two major Palestinian terrorist organizations. The PLO was the older and back in the day the more violent of the two. It was able to get over its aggression and come to a peace settlement with Israel who also put everything behind it. The Hamas blew up busses, cafes etc. Killed MANY civilians in sui…

Terrorism is - historically and in the present - almost always a symptom of a political movement that has radicalized possibly as an outgrowth of a population under occupation or backed into a corner.

That's why to me it is a symptom.

As for the rest, we are mostly in agreement, I think the latter bit is the key but for that Israel would have to back off of certain policies and they would have to be able to accept that some fragment of Hamas / and or terrorist factions funded by other countries around it will cause some degree of damage. There is some analogy with 'force protection' here, if you focus too much on protecting your own side at the expense of your status with respect to human rights on the side of your opponent you more or less automatically breed terrorists.

Leaving hundreds of thousands of youths with the image of an enemy next door has to result in a terrorist organization. More so if you occasionally kill a bunch of them and/or remove their kinsfolk from land that they've lived on their whole lives.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#360

Post by YZF »

jacquesm wrote: post #350
YZF wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's gonna take decades. The cynical take here is that Israel knows it'll be hated (I mean isn't it anyways) and it's going to take away the means of those people to execute on that hate. What the UN secretary general said isn't helping because it's excusing the Oct 7 attack which is inexcusable. Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Israel's blockage of Gaza hasn't happened in a vacuum either. Should we trace back the c…

> I'm just watching this from the sidelines like everyone, how exactly do we stop causing more wounds? By focusing on that which can be influenced which is usually limited to your own side. Go back to the Oslo accords, enable a UN peacekeeping mission (with teeth) and abandon any territory settled. That should be a good start. Not that I even dream of the hardliners on either side thinking that is acceptable.

Didn't we just try this in Gaza? Abandoned the territory settled? Imagine if Hamas controlled both Gaza and the West Bank? Israel would be destroyed.

UN peacekeeping is bullshit. What country is going to trust the UN to guarantee it's security. There is UN peacekeeping in Lebanon where attacks against Israel are and were coming from, they do zilch. The history of UN peacekeepers in the region is that at any hint of violence they move away.

On the Israeli side nobody will trust the Palestinians over anything. There's also a minority that believes the entire land belongs to Israel and screw the Palestinians. On the Palestinian side (IMO) there's a majority that is unwilling to take any settlement other than all the Jews should leave the middle east. There's fractures and nobody that represents all of them that can agree and/or enforce any agreement. So here we are.

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