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Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#111

Post by astrange »

tonnydourado wrote: post #48
omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

> that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience I thought the same thing when reading the article, but then I started to wonder how the fuck would you double blind that?

Could give them a psychoactive that's not reputed to help with depression. As long as they don't know what a trip looks like they won't know you gave them DMT when they're talking to the machine elves.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#112

Post by astrange »

topherPedersen wrote: post #91

I broke my leg skydiving a few months ago. The EMTs gave me ketamine and fentanyl before they loaded me up in the ambulance. That stuff sent me to another dimension! I never want to go back there. Was pretty terrifying to be honest. Maybe a low dose could help with depression? I think a high dose would probably scare people and they wouldn't want to do it again.

That's a pretty traumatic situation, so it suggests you shouldn't try to be cured of depression right after breaking your leg.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#113

Post by louison11 »

omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

For sure. In indigenous circles, the perception is often that science’s approach to psychedelics is quite ill-fitted because it seeks to separate the molecules from the non-physical essence of the medicines. What is called “set and setting” in the secular world, is called “sorcery” or “ceremony” for them. They understand the many transcendental layers opened by this medicine in a profound, intimate manner, and many of these traditions have developed, refined and passed down over generations intricate spiritual sciences meant to work with these unseen forces with the most grace possible.

So, naturally when westerns come and want to isolate compounds and get rid of the ceremonial background because it’s “unscientific”, the only possible reaction is to put one’s hand in the face and think “here we go again, THIS too will be colonized.”

This world has far many more dimensions than what modern science is able to address. And many of these plants/compounds open access to these dimensions. It’s really important I think that we have the humility to learn from the people who have worked with these medicines for a very long time.

Context: I have apprenticed and studied very closely under various traditional lineages for the past few years.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#114

Post by astrange »

supportengineer wrote: post #28
calibas wrote: post #27

A big part of depression is negative thinking, so it's not too much of a stretch to believe that positive thoughts, like hope, would lessen depression.

In a late-stage capitalism world, where the climate is collapsing, and homes are unaffordable, where does hope come from?

The term "Late-stage capitalism" was invented over 100 years ago, and I don't think there is any rational reason to be more depressed than a feudalist peasant.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#115

Post by apatheticonion »

topherPedersen wrote: post #91

I broke my leg skydiving a few months ago. The EMTs gave me ketamine and fentanyl before they loaded me up in the ambulance. That stuff sent me to another dimension! I never want to go back there. Was pretty terrifying to be honest. Maybe a low dose could help with depression? I think a high dose would probably scare people and they wouldn't want to do it again.

A friend of mine needed a bunch of morphine before a major surgery. Right before the doctor administered it he said "don't worry, people pay a lot of money for this"

Always thought that was a pretty funny line

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#116

Post by gausswho »

omginternets wrote: post #65
earljwagner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tom Wolfe, in "Sorry, But Your Soul Just Died", Forbes Magazine, 1996 http://www.psy.vanderbilt.edu/courses/psy115w/Fall02/TomWolf... Which brings us to the second most famous statement in all of modern philosophy: Nietzsche's "God is dead." The year was 1882. (The book was Die Frohliche Wissenschaft [ The Gay Science ].) Nietzsche said this was not a declaration of atheism, although he was in fact an atheist, but si…

That Tom Wolfe piece was a great read. Thank you.

That link no longer works. Is this the same as you read? https://contemporarythinkers.org/tom-wolfe/essay/sorry-soul-...

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#117

Post by e9 »

louison11 wrote: post #113
omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

For sure. In indigenous circles, the perception is often that science’s approach to psychedelics is quite ill-fitted because it seeks to separate the molecules from the non-physical essence of the medicines. What is called “set and setting” in the secular world, is called “sorcery” or “ceremony” for them. They understand the many transcendental layers opened by this medicine in a profound, intimate manner, and many o…

Where can we find more information or learn from you?

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#118

Post by hcks »

insickness wrote: post #46

>The take-away should not be that ketamine “is just a placebo,” Heifets emphasized. This is the very definition of placebo and why double blind studies are done. The control group and the actual group both improved thinking they got the drug. > In fact, there may be physiological resonance between the placebo effect — in other words, hope — and how ketamine works. This is just mumbo jumbo. There's no 'resonance effec…

This is insane, people are really unwilling to let go the idea that illegal psychoactive drugs may have any beneficial effects for depression.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#119

Post by okwhateverdude »

omginternets wrote: post #30
cooper_ganglia wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can't really object to rationality on its own, but it may be worth considering non-rational, transcendent experience as a fundamental psychological need. I couldn't agree more, you've made really great points that allowed me to reflect on my own approach to my mental wellbeing. I honestly needed to see this comment right now. Thank you!

I couldn't be happier! Do me a favor: help me preach the good word that philosophy is an important and practical subject! :) If you want me to really tickle your noodle, consider that a lot of modern-day issues stem from a quest for transcendence in a society that has largely dismantled the institutions capable of delivering it. In particular, I am of the (somewhat provocative) opinion that things like radical Islami…

> In particular, I am of the (somewhat provocative) opinion that things like radical Islamic terrorism, fringe climate activism, and the more virulent brands of third-wave feminism are all, at their core, performative quests for such transcendence.

Interesting thought. If you have a blog, I'd like to read more.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#120

Post by xwowsersx »

omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

Excellent point and very well stated.
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