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Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#21

Post by b33j0r »

omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

Agree. I have heard stories of people who “had one treatment and never smoked/put their elbows on the dinner table ever again.”

My experiences seemed to benefit more from watching David Attenborough and feeling a connection to life.

I’d interpret the dad of a family of mountain lions as an analogue of my dad, etc. Seeing events as taking place in a dissociated context. All that introspection is what I found useful about Ketamine.

Yeah, sounds silly. But it made me a happier person. To my understanding and experience, these function more to temporarily remove neurological filters than really add much new (same with LSD, etc). Maybe that benefit is “subjective,” but what’s the difference to me, years later?

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#22

Post by tuatoru »

JohnMakin wrote: post #12
omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

It can also be harmful. I know someone who went through this treatment, they had an out of body/ego death experience, and were convinced that's what death felt like, and they really liked it. They had a suicide attempt just a few days later. It isn't the type of treatment one tries unless they've exhausted all other options. It's saddening to hear a lot of depression treatments seem largely reliant on placebo effect…

That's extremely common with recovery from MDD. The ability to act improves before the low mood, so bam! suicide. In hospitals new patients, particularly younger adults, are put on suicide watch for this exact reason.

So the suicide watch monitoring somehow didn't happen. Not unique to ket or psilo. Not at all.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#23

Post by Waterluvian »

omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

A very fascinating thought to consider. Though I struggle not to be equally suspect than this is also just hopeful thinking.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#24

Post by JohnMakin »

tuatoru wrote: post #22
JohnMakin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can also be harmful. I know someone who went through this treatment, they had an out of body/ego death experience, and were convinced that's what death felt like, and they really liked it. They had a suicide attempt just a few days later. It isn't the type of treatment one tries unless they've exhausted all other options. It's saddening to hear a lot of depression treatments seem largely reliant on placebo effect…

That's extremely common with recovery from MDD. The ability to act improves before the low mood, so bam! suicide. In hospitals new patients, particularly younger adults, are put on suicide watch for this exact reason. So the suicide watch monitoring somehow didn't happen. Not unique to ket or psilo. Not at all.

ketamine treatments are often offered online so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s very common.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#25

Post by tuatoru »

JohnMakin wrote: post #24
tuatoru wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's extremely common with recovery from MDD. The ability to act improves before the low mood, so bam! suicide. In hospitals new patients, particularly younger adults, are put on suicide watch for this exact reason. So the suicide watch monitoring somehow didn't happen. Not unique to ket or psilo. Not at all.

ketamine treatments are often offered online so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s very common.

They need to come with a huge black-bordered warning, then. SSRIs do, in some jurisdictions.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#26

Post by cpncrunch »

omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

Your comment seems to ignore the main point of the article: that the placebo group did actually have life-changing resolution of their depression symptoms.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#28

Post by supportengineer »

calibas wrote: post #27

A big part of depression is negative thinking, so it's not too much of a stretch to believe that positive thoughts, like hope, would lessen depression.

In a late-stage capitalism world, where the climate is collapsing, and homes are unaffordable, where does hope come from?

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#29

Post by omginternets »

dv_dt wrote: post #17
omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

Another issue is the variability of depression as a diagnosis itself. An admittedly anecdotal set of my encounters with people who take or have taken anti-depressants is most are on changing set of prescriptions because nothing works continuously and a high percentage of them are ones which no anti-depressant drug worked and were fixed by a different diagnoses for something like adhd. How does one evaluate if a new d…

Yes, agreed! I think I could even formulate a cogent argument for why the diagnostic variability is itself a result of ignoring qualia, but the last comment has drained me of energy for the day ^^

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#30

Post by omginternets »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #13
omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

>I can't really object to rationality on its own, but it may be worth considering non-rational, transcendent experience as a fundamental psychological need. I couldn't agree more, you've made really great points that allowed me to reflect on my own approach to my mental wellbeing. I honestly needed to see this comment right now. Thank you!

I couldn't be happier! Do me a favor: help me preach the good word that philosophy is an important and practical subject! :)

If you want me to really tickle your noodle, consider that a lot of modern-day issues stem from a quest for transcendence in a society that has largely dismantled the institutions capable of delivering it. In particular, I am of the (somewhat provocative) opinion that things like radical Islamic terrorism, fringe climate activism, and the more virulent brands of third-wave feminism are all, at their core, performative quests for such transcendence.

But that's all secondary to the fact that I am glad my comment is helpful to you on a personal level :)

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