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NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

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Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#91

Post by akerl_ »

chrisco255 wrote: post #88
akerl_ wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not conflating anything. I’m drawing a comparison, and asking you to back up why you think “the press” literally means “the printing press, as an object” in a way that would somehow extend to “3d printers”, rather than the concept of printing and distributing news and information. You’re the one who keeps bringing up the terms journalists and journalism. It’s not clear to me why the constitution predating those t…

Quite simply, because in 1789, "the press" meant the printing press. I pointed to historical references when that began to pivot to mean more broadly "journalism" in general, but in 1789, the printing press was the only meaning "the press" carried at the time. They of course couldn't have envisioned alternative mediums that the "press" might alternatively refer to. They couldn't have predicted radio, television, and…

So you’re presenting your own opinion about how the amendment should be interpreted.

That’s fine, but it seems disingenuous to present that opinion as if it’s a factual statement about how the constitution was written or has been interpreted by courts.

I’m not aware of any case law that’s suggested the 1st amendment’s freedom of press implies anything about mills or molds, nor do you seem to have any rational for why “the press” should be literal but “speech” wouldn’t be, other than you think that’s how they should be interpreted.

Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#92

Post by Ekaros »

wkat4242 wrote: post #87

Why not target the ammunition instead? After all, guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. And ammunition can't be printed and can't be made out of plastic. You can make it yourself yes but it's also possible to make a rudimentary gun from regular metal parts.

Maybe sensible step would be to require every bullet and casing to be implanted with a chip. Thus allow tracking when and where those were bought.

Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#93

Post by chrisco255 »

akerl_ wrote: post #82
chrisco255 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating "freedom of speech" with "freedom of the press". Speech, of course covers the conveyance of ideas in all forms. Why was it important to also call out "freedom of the press" separately then, if speech was already mentioned? Presses were large, expensive, exclusive tools for a long period of time. It would be trivial to control the types of essays, books, newspapers and papers that could be published…

I’m not conflating anything. I’m drawing a comparison, and asking you to back up why you think “the press” literally means “the printing press, as an object” in a way that would somehow extend to “3d printers”, rather than the concept of printing and distributing news and information. You’re the one who keeps bringing up the terms journalists and journalism. It’s not clear to me why the constitution predating those t…

I further my case:

"Printing presses shall be free except as to false facts published maliciously either to injure the reputation of another (whether followed by pecuniary damages or not) or to expose him to the punishment of the law." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes for a Constitution, 1794.

"Printing presses shall be subject to no other restraint than liableness to legal prosecution for false facts printed and published." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft of Virginia Constitution, 1783. ME 2:298, Papers 6:304

"A declaration that the Federal Government will never restrain the presses from printing anything they please will not take away the liability of the printers for false facts printed." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

"The light which has been shed on mankind by the art of printing has eminently changed the condition of the world... And while printing is preserved, it can no more recede than the sun return on his course." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1823. ME 15:465

"The art of printing alone and the vast dissemination of books will maintain the mind where it is and raise the conquering ruffians to the level of the conquered instead of degrading these to that of their conquerors." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1821. ME 15:334

"The art of printing secures us against the retrogradation of reason and information." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Paganel, 1811. ME 13:37

Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#94

Post by chrisco255 »

akerl_ wrote: post #91
chrisco255 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite simply, because in 1789, "the press" meant the printing press. I pointed to historical references when that began to pivot to mean more broadly "journalism" in general, but in 1789, the printing press was the only meaning "the press" carried at the time. They of course couldn't have envisioned alternative mediums that the "press" might alternatively refer to. They couldn't have predicted radio, television, and…

So you’re presenting your own opinion about how the amendment should be interpreted. That’s fine, but it seems disingenuous to present that opinion as if it’s a factual statement about how the constitution was written or has been interpreted by courts. I’m not aware of any case law that’s suggested the 1st amendment’s freedom of press implies anything about mills or molds, nor do you seem to have any rational for why…

Read my original statement.

It is a fact that "the press" in the first amendment referred to the printing press. That is indisputable. That courts have expanded that at times or attempted to hone in on its meanings over the centuries is irrelevant to that fact or to my point.

It is an opinion, that goes without saying, when I offer: "The 3D printing presses should remain equally free."

The right to speak, the right to pursue happiness, the right to print freely on a press, the right to bear arms, the right to liberty, these are all enumerated rights. These are more than enough to cover the right to print in 3D, nevermind that these enumerations are non-exhaustive.

Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#95

Post by [deleted] »

chrisco255 wrote: post #3

A lot of people forget that the word "press" in the phrase "freedom of the press" refers to an actual printing press, not the modern term that people confuse for corporate journalism. The 3D printing presses should remain equally free. If and when someone commits a crime with a piece of technology, that is when to charge them. We should not normalize the presumption of criminal intent, nor restrict even those that ha…

[deleted]

Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#96

Post by dole »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #83
mediumdeviation wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't think the legislation make sense, I don't think it's not a problem. Here's some statistics: > Last year, police departments seized at least 25,785 ghost guns nationwide, the Justice Department said recently, and those are just the weapons submitted by police to ATF for tracing, even though they don’t have serial numbers and largely cannot be traced. > In 2021, the number of guns recovered was 19,344, me…

At least where I live, the vast majority "ghost guns" that are getting used for crimes are polymer80 glocks that can be built with just a drill, no 3d printing required.

The majority of ghost gun crime arrests and charges that I’ve seen in various local and nationwide news articles are still polymer80 frames and 80% ar-type lowers, vs. printed frames. I’d estimate only about 10% or less involved printing but is creeping up with p80 taking heat and printing becoming more ubiquitous.

Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#97

Post by dole »

wkat4242 wrote: post #87

Why not target the ammunition instead? After all, guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. And ammunition can't be printed and can't be made out of plastic. You can make it yourself yes but it's also possible to make a rudimentary gun from regular metal parts.

Regulating ammo will just transform that market, expose exploits and waste money and time in bureaucracy and theater.

Serialized bullets and proposed microstamps will drive up manufacturing and end consumer costs and expand a black market for it.

You may not be able to fully print ammo yet, but you can still buy primers and powder-actuated tools that’ll help get there, and then we’ll have to pivot and regulate that too.

Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#98

Post by chung8123 »

spaceribs wrote: post #79
cvccvroomvroom wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how California operates already. Defenseless population who aren't allowed to defend themselves, skyrocketing crime, and police who are borderline worthless.

It seems urban centers are significantly safer than rural counties, by about 37%: https://www.chop.edu/news/study-finds-gun-deaths-more-likely...

"Over that same period, the most rural county type had a 54% higher gun suicide death rate and a 50% lower gun homicide death rate compared with the most urban counties."

I am not sure I am reading the data the same way as you. To me this shows urban areas have a much higher homicide rate which would be more associated with safety.

Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#99

Post by yeetawayhn »

spaceribs wrote: post #77
cvccvroomvroom wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arguing with the religiously anti-gun costal people who have their minds made up, are afraid of all firearms, and believe no one should have them... except the criminals.

Actually, you're arguing with people who consider gun deaths to be an epidemic[1], and are treating it as such. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1184731316/gun-violence-epide...

And yet those are the same people who don't consider alcohol deaths to be an epidemic, and aren't treating it as such.

Re: NY Bill Would Require Background Checks to Buy 3D Printers

#100

Post by mutex_man »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #85
chrisco255 wrote: post #3

A lot of people forget that the word "press" in the phrase "freedom of the press" refers to an actual printing press, not the modern term that people confuse for corporate journalism. The 3D printing presses should remain equally free. If and when someone commits a crime with a piece of technology, that is when to charge them. We should not normalize the presumption of criminal intent, nor restrict even those that ha…

Printers and scanners are already regulated to not print very authentic copies of dollars. Maybe we could do the same with 3D printers?

The hardware and software for 3d printers is actually much simpler than that of regular printers. The only specific requirements for a 3D printer is basically just an Arduino and some stepper motors with drivers. Everything else can be (and was back when it started) made from off the shelf parts. Even the filament can be made at home from soda bottles.

It's relatively easy to detect modern US currency, it doesn't vary by much, and if you were to vary it a lot, it'd be an obvious counterfeit. Firearms don't operate like that. They are all wildly different designs with different complex parts. Even if you wrote something to detect the current models that are out there, they could be easily changed to be identically functional but unrecognizable.

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