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Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

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Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#381
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least one source gives shoplifting as the plurality of shrinkage at 36%, with employee theft close behind at 30%. But if theft isn't prosecuted, this would seem to affect incentives for both shoplifting and employee theft. https://lithospos.com/blog/shrinkage-in-retail-and-how-to-pr... Together this puts theft at a solid majority (66%) of shrinkage.

No, this puts "shoplifting" on the same level as "employee theft" and "literally just doing a bad job" in terms of losing $100 billion (this is actually a global number) last year. IE, brick and mortar retail reported losing about $35 billion to shoplifting. Out of $6 TRILLION (Just in the US!) worth of brick and mortar retail sales in the same year, in an industry that claims 2% profit margins on the low ends. All t…

> All the fuss over shoplifting is just noise.

You should definitely go to YCombinator and use this valuable perspective to start a brick and mortar retail firm

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without anyone offering a clear, compelling alternative approach to public safety and deterring crime. This really just betrays that you were not paying attention beyond the tagline. Multiple cities have already implemented trial programs to replace police services with mental health and EMT professionals to wild success. Denver has the STAR program [0] and I'm aware of a similar program in New Orleans and I'm sure…

Your reply has a big claim, namely that they have had a "wild success". Instead of giving sources for this claim you provided us with contextual information that proves nothing

I bet they get fewer arrests. How would you measure success?

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#383
post #322

You have to have been raised pretty sweetly to not have known this kind of racketeering was a 'thing' for a very long time. Pressure to hire cops is rampant. 'rent-a-cop' is not aimed at the fact that security companies apply aggressive mimicry to their people, but that these people are themselves often off-duty cops. Security companies are strongly "encouraged" to hire off-duty cops, and find themselves left out to…

It's pretty eye opening to watch every bill pushed through in the name of firearm safety turning out to have massive exemptions for off duty and retired cops. They're such a powerful political force that it's outright expected they should have a disproportionate ability to deliver force even after they're retired .

Most of the reason for cops being security and being excluded from most firearms safety bills is because rhey already have a credential that was more strenuous to achieve than what the proposed bill is. That training, whether effective or not, is also seen to mitigate risks around litigation when they work security due to how our courts work (how things look can be more important).

Although there are other laws that do illustrate what you are saying.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's astonishing the degree to which the public tolerates such forms of ineptitude and subversion – it has a direct impact on everyone's bottom line. The George Floyd protests were huge. I don't think it's a simple matter of the public being too complacent. I'd say that insofar as the protests were unsuccessful, it's because their energy wasn't being directed strategically. There was so much discussion of "defunding…

> without anyone offering a clear, compelling alternative approach to public safety and deterring crime. This really just betrays that you were not paying attention beyond the tagline. Multiple cities have already implemented trial programs to replace police services with mental health and EMT professionals to wild success. Denver has the STAR program [0] and I'm aware of a similar program in New Orleans and I'm sure…

>Multiple cities have already implemented trial programs to replace police services with mental health and EMT professionals to wild success.

That's chill, but it doesn't seem nearly as radical as the "abolish the police" slogan? What fraction of police calls have been replaced with mental health/EMT calls in these cities?

Suppose someone is suspected of using a counterfeit $20 bill -- does Denver now call a mental health or EMT professional for that person?

>Proponents of capitalism seem to have never encountered Goodhart's law. [1]

The severity of Goodhart's law depends on the mismatch between what you want and how you measure it. If you're able to measure what you want very accurately, Goodhart's law is not as much of an issue.

Goodhart's law doesn't just apply to capitalism, it applies in many social domains -- including the political domain. The grandparent comment states:

>There are many broken feedback loops right now from the grand (lobbying and campaign finance) to the minuscule (niche price fixing, bribery, police-ran protection rackets), all compounding unfavorably, all seemingly booming.

Lobbying, campaign finance, price fixing, bribery, and police-ran protection rackets only relate to free-enterprise competition in the vaguest possible sense ("they all involve money").

I brought up the logo police idea for discussion because I think it's possible that it could align feedback loops better than the status quo. I invite you and everyone else to shoot holes in the idea, and guess how specifically it could fail. It could be that it fails in predictable ways, yet is still an improvement on the status quo.

One of my hot takes is that it's good to rotate your metric on a regular basis, in order to flush out actors who are purely optimizing for the current metric and nothing else.

Unfortunately, any beneficiary of the status quo has a strong incentive to maintain it even if it's flawed, and random members of society only have a weak incentive to fix it. That creates friction that prevents rotating metrics.

From an incentive engineering perspective, this meta problem seems like the highest-leverage thing to solve. If we could fix that public goods problem, we could keep tweaking incentives on a regular basis and hopefully outrun Goodhart's Law faster and better than we are currently able to do.

I wonder if mechanisms for solving public goods problems, like dominant assurance contracts, could be helpful here.

Ultimately standard left/right debates sound pretty tired to my ears. In an ideal world, "incentive engineering" would be just as rich of a discussion as "software engineering" is today. The current situation is like if every HN post about software engineering was either an argument for why static typing sucks, or an argument for why static typing rocks. There's a much bigger world out there people. The heroes vs villains frame that people want to apply to every problem is often an impoverished one, IMO.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's astonishing the degree to which the public tolerates such forms of ineptitude and subversion – it has a direct impact on everyone's bottom line. The George Floyd protests were huge. I don't think it's a simple matter of the public being too complacent. I'd say that insofar as the protests were unsuccessful, it's because their energy wasn't being directed strategically. There was so much discussion of "defunding…

I think your idea has many flaws, but I am very surprised and happy to see novel approaches here, and it absolutely represents my favorite part of HackerNews. Probably the reason policing is sub optimal is due to the fact that it is funded by the city, so more prosperous areas can pay more, and recruit the best cops, while the areas with less income often can't pay as well, (or enough to offset the risks). Compare th…

> I think your idea has many flaws, but I am very surprised and happy to see novel approaches here, and it absolutely represents my favorite part of HackerNews.

Really appreciate the words of encouragement here!

If you want to encourage me further, you should give details about the flaws and challenge me to address them :-)

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#387

Already, police do this exact shakedown on cities. There are numerous incidents (anecdotal) of US police threatening city officials to reduce enforcement during election cycles, demanding increases in police force budget. Broadly, the US needs to eliminate corruption. There are many broken feedback loops right now from the grand (lobbying and campaign finance) to the minuscule (niche price fixing, bribery, police-ran…

We don't have cities, we have police departments with a few ancillary services. Example: https://kypolicy.org/kentuckys-largest-cities-spend-a-quarte...

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One theory I read is that Floyd and Chauvin were part of the same counterfeiting ring operating out of that club, and Chauvin murdered Floyd in order to keep him quiet. (Recall that Floyd was originally arrested for suspected use of a counterfeit $20 bill.) I think maybe part of the idea was that nightclubs are interesting to counterfeiters because they deal with so much cash. (Racism still plays a big part in the Fl…

> Racism still plays a big part in the Floyd story even if this is true What makes you think that?

[deleted]

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#389
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does buying a gun have to do with safety?

California's Unsafe Handgun Act is ostensibly intended to protect consumers from cheaply manufactured handguns that might malfunction or otherwise be unsafe to operate. Here is California's Attorney General explaining it: https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bont... > “California’s commonsense gun safety laws save lives, and the Unsafe Handgun Act is no exception,” said Attorney General Bonta. “Acc…

My point was that a gun doesn’t make you more safe, but the opposite. Anyone talking about buying a gun shouldn’t be discussing safety, they are unrelated concepts.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#390
post #104

Doesn’t sound that different from traffic control details in Massachusetts. While I don't know the details of their agreements first hand, I believe they are required by law to be off-duty cops, they are expensive, and have something like a 6 hour minimum. What I can validate is that they are usually seen chatting with people or sitting in their car rather than doing a single thing to help streamline traffic or in th…

Came here to mention this. It's the biggest shakedown of all time in Massachusetts. They are required to do all these jobs that most states don't require them to do. They are extremely expensive, like 10x what a construction worker costs to wave flags on the side of the road. And the police don't even really pretend to do the job most of the time. They are off on the side of the road drinking coffee and playing with…

If I thought we had a chance against the police union, I'd suggest we co-found a computer vision startup that does the same job for free ;)
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